Vedanta dan Sains No.1: Kehidupan dan Asal Mula Jagat Raya

by Dr. T. D. Singh (His Holiness Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami)

pp. 84, Softbound

Rp. 50.000 (Yang English)

Rp. 38.000 (Yang Bahasa Indonesia)

ISBN: 81-901369-3-3

Vedanta merupakan kesimpulan atau kata akhir Literatur (Kitab-kitab) Veda. Vedanta- Sutra tersusun atas ayat-ayat pendek yang disebut dengan sutra. Setiap sutra memiliki kedalaman arti dan makna, maka itu orang biasa tidak mudah mengerti dengan membacanya begitu saja. sutra ibarat suatu rumus atau formula yang terdiri atas huruf atau kata yang singkat, harus diberi penjelasan agar orang umum bisa mengertinya. Maka itu sejak dahulu kala Para Acharya agung menyusun berbagai ulasan Vedanta Sutra secara panjang lebar. seperti yang dilakukan oleh Madhvacarya, Ramanuja Acharya, dan lain-lainnya. Kini di dunia modern ini, telah hadir seorang pengulas Vedanta Sutra, Sri Srimad Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami (TD Singh, Ph.D) seorang rohaniawan Hindu yang juga jebolan University Of California, USA.  Beliau Menyajikan dua sutra pertama VEdanta sutra dalam buku ini, tentunya disertai dengan ulasan, kali ini ulasan yang tidak seperti sebelumnya, melainkan Ulasan dari kacamata Ilmiah (Scientific Commentary). Walaupun TD Singh seorang DOktor, namun penyajiannya dalam buku ini sangat mudah dimengerti, penjelasannya sangat mengalir. bahasanya sederhana. penuh dengan kejutan dan membuka cakrawala.

So …. Dont Miss it. !

Karena di dalamnya Dibahas:

Ketidaksempurnaan Big Bang Theory, Big Vision: alternatif Vedanta. Asal-usul Jagat-raya. Apakah Jagat raya ini tertutup atau terbuka? Apakah alam-semesta itu cuma satu atau banyak? apakah penciptaan alam semesta itu cuma sekali? atau bersiklus? Apakah setelah kiamat tidak ada penciptaan lagi? dan tentunya Pembahasan tentang Jagat raya ini di dahului dengan uraian-uraian yang mendasar seperti What is Life? apa makna dan tujuah kehidupan itu? Banyak Lagi!

VEDANTA AND SCIENCE SERIES: LIFE AND ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE

Since the dawn of civilization, all philosophical, scientific, religious and even artistic works, in principle, have centered around the study of life, its meaning and the origin of the universe. What is life? What is the origin of the universe? Is there any meaning and purpose behind the manifestation of life and the universe? What is the unseen couse behind the manifestation of the percaivable universe? These questions have puzzled all the great thinkers around the world over the ages. Vedanta, the topmost scientific and philosophical treatise of  Indian spiritual and cultural heritage has a lot to contribute in this area and could provide a vital laep in expanding our knowledge of life and the origin of the universe. In this unique book, His Holiness Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Svami (Dr. T. D. Singh) investigates life and the secrets of the origin of the universe and depicts the relevance of vedantic wisdom in the context of modern scientific and tecnological developments.

Welcome To Bali Maharaj

Ditulis oleh Ananta Vijaya dasa

Awalnya sebelum Sripada Maharaj datang ke Bali atas karunia Guru dan Krishna saya mendapatkan pergaulan dari HDG Goura Govinda Swami Gurudev. Dari awal perasaan saya telah terpupuk untuk mendapatkan diksa dari Beliau. Namun apa boleh buat, pada tahun 1996 Srila Gurudev mendadak meninggalkan kita, pulang kepada Krishna. Dari sejak itu penyembah dari line-nya (murid dan pengikut-ed) Srila Gurudev kebingungan siapa yang bisa melanjutkan untuk memberikan pergaulan kepada kami. Akhirnya melalui seorang penyembah yang tulus hati, Prabhu Chaitanya Candra memerintahkan Murid-murid Gurudev untuk mengundang Srila Sripada Maharaja untuk datang ke Bali memberikan pergaulan. Dari sejak itulah kami sering mencari-cari segala sesuatu yang berhubungan dengan Beliau (Sripada Maharaj-ed), seperti foto-fotonya, tembang-tembang bhajan beliau dan lain sebagainya. Yang lebih seru lagi, jauh sebelum Beliau datang penyembah-penyembah yang akan ingin menerima pergaulan dari Beliau berkumpul untuk melakukan puja dan doa bersama supaya sesegera mungkin beliau bisa datang ke Bali.

Karena terus menunggu dan menunggu kedatangan Beliau yang terus mundur dari bulan ke bulan sampai pergantian tahun akhirnya pada awal tahun 1997, tepatnya hari minggu pas ekadasi, beliau datang untuk menginjakkan kaki padmanya untuk kali pertama di pulau Bali ini kita yang tercinta ini. Pada waktu itu kebetulan para penyembah sedang melakukan program Sunday feast (program satsangga mingguan di Asrham-ed) di Sri Krishna-Balaram Ashram, Padanggalak. Saya belum pernah melihat penyambutan kedatangan seorang Sadhu yang semeriah itu dimana hampir semua penyembah menangis histeris berebutan untuk dapat mengambil kaki-padma beliau. Sampai mereka tidak tahu kepalanya terinjak-injak penyembah lain.

Waktu itu mungkin semua penyembah merasakan keharuan yang mendalam karena kedatangan orang tua yang agung seperti Beliau. Secara pribadi saya juga sama, apa lagi ketika beliau duduk di atas vyasasana dan mengambil sepasang kartal kecil dan langsung menyanyikan sebuah bhajan yang sangat indah dan memilukan “Gurudev Kripa Bindhu diya”. Mendengar lantunan suara beliau yang begitu indah untuk kali pertamanya, saya kira tidak ada seorang penyembah pun yang tidak menangis pada waktu itu.

Kata pertama yang menghiasi bibir padma beliau adalah, “I feel Bali is my home” di lain tempat beliau juga sempat mengatakan “Saya ingin membuat Bali menjadi ‘Negara’ Vaisnava yang pertama di dunia, dimana orang-orang berdatangan ke ashram menjungjung bakul (seperti tradisi Bali-ed)…. .

Setelah program pertama bersama Beliau itu, kami merasakan bagaimana (penyembah) Bali ini seperti berbunga-bunga karena ayah sejati kita telah datang menemani kita.

Kata pertama yang saya ingat yang beliau ucapkan ketika memberikan class adalah – beliau pernah bertanya kepada kita semua ketika beliau habis bhajan. “Apa kesukaan penyembah-penyembah disini? Tattva atau bhajan? Waktu itu kita menjawab kedua-duanya. Memang dalam setiap pelajarannya, Beliau pasti menekankan “Ajarkan Kesadaran Krishna ini dengan mengungkapkan  bukti-bukti ilmiah.” Ini Terbukti  pada awalnya beliau sudah mampu menarik hati ibu Gedong Bagus Oka, seorang misionaris kemanusiaan dari Bali. Sampai Ibu Gedong pernah mengatakan, “Dari sejak awal hidup saya, saya tidak pernah heran/kagum kepada siapa pun, tetapi baru kali ini saya kagum dan punya rasa hormat yang besar kepada seseorang yaitu kepada Sripada Maharaj (DR. TD Singh-ed).”

Ketika itu Ibu Gedong sering mengundang Maharaj untuk menghadiri program-program di ashramanya baik di Gandhi Ashram, yang beralamat di jalan Sudirman maupun Gandhi Ashram yang di Candidasa, Karangasem. Kita semua mengetahui tanpa kehadiran beliau di Bali, mungkin kita tidak bisa menikmati kebebasan kirtan dan menyebarkan buku seperti sekarang ini. Coba bayangkan dengan sebenar-benarnya apa yang dikatakan oleh kitab suci, Penyembah murni Tuhan, bersifat murni bagaikan matahari dan bulan dimana beliau mampu menerangi dan menyejukkan hati setiap makhluk hidup. Hampir semua orang-orang besar di Bali pernah bertatap muka dengan Beliau dan merasakan kesejukan seperti berjuta-juta bulan.  Sebenarnya bisa kita katakan bahwa beliau dikirim khusus ke Bali oleh Srila Prabhupada dan Krishna untuk membawa kunci dan membukakan pintu satu demi satu di pemerintahan Bali.

Pada waktu awal itu beliau hanya memiliki pengikut seglintir aja. Beliau sangat memperhatikan kami-kami khususnya Brahmacari. Setiap saat kita dikumpulkan dan diajak duduk mengitari beliau di bawah pohon di Asrama Krishna Balaram. dan beliau sering menceritakan ketika bagaimana Sri Krishna berguru di Sandipani muni Asram, Krishna juga duduk di bawah pohon mengitari gurunya. Dari sini kita tahu bagaimana beliau selalu larut di dalam Krishna-lila. Begitu juga  ketika beliau jauh di luar negeri, beliau selalu menyempatkan diri menelpon untuk  menanyakan, “Bagaimana kabar anak-anak saya di Bali?.” Itu adalah bukti Bahwa beliau sangat mencintai Bali dan selalu memikirkan kesejahteraan kita semua di Bali.

Beberapa Lilamrita Beliau Di Bali

Saya masih ingat pada suatu hari, Guru Maharaj dan beberapa dari penyembah berangkat untuk rekaman di Maharani Record, bayangkan mulai dari pagi hari sampai keesokan harinya kita ada disana menemani beliau. Pada waktu malam hari, padahal Guru Maharaja sudah lingsir tetap beliau semangat begadang semalam suntuk hanya untuk merampungkan rekaman lagunya dengan penyembah-penyembah Bali, Walaupun  waktu itu beliau harus toleransi terhadap berbagai kondisi yang terjadi, namun beliau hanya tersenyum saja.

Ada cerita unik ketika beliau kita iring ke bedugul pada waktu balik ke Denpasar  beliau langsung bikin program di sembung di rumahnya Pb Sadayogi, saya tidak bisa menguraikan dengan kata-kata betapa ecstatic-nya kirtan waktu itu bahkan beberapa penyembah sampai menangis. Waktu itulah saya merasakan sepertinya kita sedang mengiring Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Bahkan kirtan itu berlangsung sampai malam. Ketika kirtan waktu itu (masih berlangsung) mata padma beliau sempat lama sekali menatap tajam ke belakang (dan suara Kirtan maharaj terdiam-ed) maka para penyembah sambil melangsungkan musik saja tanpa disertai dengan lagu beliau. Setelah itu Kirtan dilanjutkan dan setelah kirtan berakhir beliau bercerita kepada para penyembah mengapa beliau (sempat) menatap tajam seperti itu tadi, ternyata karena beliau sedang menyaksikan ribuan tamu tak diundang sedang berdiri terpaku di belakang sambil menonton kirtannya para penyembah. Waktu itulah semua penyembah menoleh kebelakang ketakutan. Esok harinya ternyata benar  ada seseorang pawang gamang bercerita kerumahnya prabhu Sadayogi dia mengatakan, “Kemarin ribuan anak buah gamangku minta ijin kepadaku ingin datang melihat program tadi malam di sini.” Herannya hanya Maharaja yang mampu melihatnya.

Di kejadian lain ketika kita ngiring beliau ke lombok. Suatu hari kita iring bliau kepermandian otak kokok dimana air itu muncul dari bawah pohon besar. Menurut cerita orang-orang disana bahwa air itu konon bias menyembuhkan dan mengeluarkan penyakit kotoran dari dalam tubuh kita. Benar ketika itu kita melihat orang –orang sedang mandi disana. Begitu mereka mencelupkan badannya diair itu dari badannya keluar buih-buih putih kotor hanyut bersama air. Begitu juga para penyembah yang ikut mandi dari badan mereka krluar buih kotoran cuman saya melihat kotorn yang keluar dari badan penyembah tidak sekeras orang-orang karmi. terakhir Guru Maharaja memasukkan Badan-padma beliau kedalam air waktu itu kita semua heran tidak ada satu buih pun yang keluar dari badan Maharaja malahan airnya menjadi lebih bening.

Saya ingin menceritakan semangat mengajarkan beliau ketika di Jogjakarta. Saya pernah mengiring beliau ke sebuah kampung Hindu di Klaten dimana beliau menebarkan karunianya disana sampai seluruh kampung menjadi  heboh dengan kirtan beliau. Suatu hari saya sedang melayani beliau persad sendiri di kamar beliau di asrama jogja,  ketika itu beliau dan saya bercerita tentang banyak hal mengenai priching dijogja dan jawa. Dengan semangat Beliau berkata, “Ananta sebenarnya saya ingin satu murid saya di bali ini jadi sanyasi.” Dalam Englishnya “Ananta, I want one of my devotee in Bali take sanyasa” kita tahu sampai sekarang pun  beliau tidak memiliki Kandidat sanyasi di Bali ini.  Saya sangat merasakan bagaimana beliau menyayangi Bali dan murid-murid  beliau di bali.

Hanya segini saya sampaikan sebenarnya masih banyak yang saya ingin sampaikan mungikn saya akan sambung lagi pada lain kesempatan. Dan mungkin kisah-kisah lainnya  bisa didapatkan dari murid-murid dan penyembah lainnya.

Yours

Anantavijaya dasa

Catatan Kami:

Jika Para Penyembah dimana pun dan darimana pun memiliki cerita dan kisah tentang Srila Sripada Maharaja, silahkan berbagai dengan kami. Sebelum kisah itu menguap begitu sajat. Matur Thank You

Sripada.nectar@gmail.com

Sms: 081805681672, 081237592245

Bedugul, Bali, Indonesia, Dec 28, 2005

Hare Krsna, I d like to thanks all of you for your coming from different great planets…

So, Bhaktivonoda Thakur says, that in most people sleeping, so therefore it is good to understand that we are waking up from deep slumber…slumber mean sleep. So by the blessing of Prabhupada that so…we given this wonderful understanding that we have to get up from this deep sleep. To wake up means…what do we do when we wake up? just like the sun rising in early in the morning and then …we see everything is look up a beautiful life and we can see around, also we can remember the beautiful  birds and so many wonderful things happening when we wake up in the morning. So this understanding of waking up of from deep sleep, deep sleep means one completely in the mood of ignorance, darkness, tamoguna.  When tamoguna is influenced the individual, we just like in a deep slumber or deep sleep. But only go to the Vaikuntha planet by we leave this body, and we  go to Vaikuntha planet…in Vaikuntha planet all living entities never sleeps. So therefore  is hours in the morning, always likes a morning-morning hours. When I came to Bali, in the morning I always  heard a beautiful music from a little birds that always come near me and sing a beautiful song that reminds me the Vaikuntha planet. In another day when we  working a whole night…we re left  after four o’clock in the morning, and when I come out from the door I saw a beautiful bird singing  little far and he was singing; “Swamiji….in the birds song but the song says in English that, “Krsna is The Supreme Personality of Godhead”. So, I heard the same song, the same music about 10 years ago when I had a little operation a removement of stone and I spend some days in Bombay. But in Bombay by next of my room there’s was a coconut tree, Bombay is also like Bali. And in that coconut tree, this little bird come every day, every day early in the morning I heard the same song, “Swamiji…Krsna is The Supreme Personality  of Godhead”. So what I heard the same song another day in Bali, o…this is a message…massage, a bird from Vaikunta planet. Therefore, that Krsna Consciousness is the culture of Vaikuntha, people in Vaikunthaloka.

There is also a beautiful song, I will sing a song. The song called arunodaya kirtan, actually sung when the sun is coming… rising…the rising sun. So the meaning is ..very beautiful (Guru Maharaja read song’s the translation);

“As the rising sun colored the eastern horizon. Lord Gaurasundara, the jewel of twice born woke up. Gathering his devotees around him, he went to walk in the town of Nadia. The mrdangga made tathai…tathai sounds…tathai is the name of the language of mrdanga ..and the cymbals played along rhythmically. The lord’s golden limbs tremble with ecstasy  of divine love and his ankle bell jingle.

And the lord explained to his followers, just chant the name of Krsna, Mukunda, Madhava, Yadava and Hari. Your night has wasted in useless sleep and your day is lost in decorating your body. Then He says, having received this human body that we so difficult to attain, why do u still remain unconscious of this value. If you do not worship the son of Mother Yasoda now, then you regretted in the time of death.

When the rising sun sets u become anxious because another day has in lost, why then do you remain idol and lordships the lord of your heart. The essentials thing to know is that life is temporary and full of dangerous. Therefore, take shelter of the holy name with great care, while continuing  to do your own occupation or duty.

Then He says, desiring to bring auspiciousness to all souls, the holy name has descended into this material world to remove darkness and ignorance and to shine in the sky of heart. And Bhaktivinod says, please give Bhaktivinoda life by drinking the pure nectar of holy name. There is nothing more value in this fourteen worlds other than holy name”.

Jai jai harinama mahasankirtana ki..jai…

Hare krsna…hare krsna…hare krsna…jai..jai harinama mahasankirtana ki…jai..

Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nastyeva nastyeva nastyeva gathir anyatha. Jai Srila Prabhupada ki..,Jai Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu ki..jai..jai Vaikuntha Bhakta Vaishnava Vrnda ki jai…Gaura Premanande…

Udilo aruna purabe-bhage (Maharaja singing arunodaya kirtana song with devotees)

Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare

Prema dhavani…then Guru Maharaja speaks again;

“Hare krsna, somehow the sun also coming, the lakes on the right side and the trees also enjoying. Vaikuntha is like that…very peaceful, Vaikuntha mean peace, Vaikuntha means place there is anxiety and no worry. So Krsna consciousness is a training how to enter Vaikuntha world. So therefore this is the most, highest, the most important culture. Therefore we have to learn how to remain very steady, steady means dhira, dhira means very very peaceful in ourselves and peaceful with everyone…So the culture of how became dhira, dhira means very stable, very balance, balance life, and also always taking the blessing the higher authorities is the essence of Krsna Consciousness.

So I m very happy to see devotees from Singaraja…some devotees come from Singaraja right? Can you rise your hand? Id like to thank all of u for coming, by your sincere prayer there is good day today, and no rain this time. Yesterday we have in Klungkung but the rain was very very strong. So we have a special blessing today from…because the authority of Vaikuntha, so therefore the lord blessing us. Very nice.

So I m leaving actually the day after tomorrow morning. This trip is unplanned trip. Then the messages came that I must go for doing some duties, an important duties. I just leave  even I leave my luggage in Calcutta, but  I only came by my dhoti. So this duty was to do something, to organize some program, a more  important preaching, preaching duty in Bali. It s takes two more day to complete. And our…some of our devotees working hard so they don’t sleep for last three or four day, and they only take one glass water every day. They working very hard, but they doing well, finished. So, many of you also contributed something because it is required. I d like thanks all of u for your contribution because contribution is required for completing this work. So please stay well, I intend to return maybe in summer time, summer means around July and I will stay in longer time..will do a lot of programs.

And I want to make announcement that this year from April, I m touring with cultural group from Manipur, I taking more than 20 artist to around USA, drumming, martial arts. Anybody who doesn’t agree I also have martial arts groups…so this is martial arts function (laughter). I will stay about three month until May-June, July I will come and we also plans to invite many artist from all around the world…this is due to invite for opening festival in  Manipur, 2007.  I like to request all of you, to come in Manipur temple opening, 2007 in month of October.

So I suggested to by one boat. You can from here come to harbour in Calcutta, Calcutta is  nearby. It takes about 25 days by boat (laughter). And when u came to Calcutta you said that you are from Manipur, Manipuris. So there is no visa required. They will very happy, then you said that you coming from Bombay for special picnic and now coming in Calcutta. So in this way  please plans. If you don’t find a boat, you can take helicopter…and there will be a very big  festivals…very nice festivals.

Our four devotees from Bali that already in Manipur trying to finished, and they said not to leave Manipur until the temple finished. So by this preparation  pursuing, so please plans from now. But there are also cheap flight if you go by the other way. There are flight…we have like Asia Air, Jet Star…is Dhira Kesava here? Dhira Kesava at this year in Vrndavan recently going by that flight. Also Malaysia airline…very cheap. Many ways  to going there. So Please plans. It will be very cold at this time, Manipur is like this…like this cold. This invitation you keep in mind and you save one rupiah (Indonesian Currency) every day…(laughter), by that way there’s no many problem.

I’m very happy that to see, and also able to come for few days and see all of you. So in Vrndavan a few days ago many devotees gather together and had a very nice program. About many devotees said that they want to do again in Bali, they wants to come to Bali. And also the other group also said, “maharaja we want to go to Bali”, URI also said “maharaja arrange something that we all want to going to Bali”. And our science group from around the world, they call me “Dr Singh you arrange program in Bali, we wants to come to Bali”. Bali is very…I always ask everyone, you come to Bali than you get peace. So, therefore many important program make on, and this program that we are trying to completed is just to facilitate that…we can do some nice program. Because you have so many young devotees, we want to engage all of you very nicely so that you always remain busy. And also we will begin a very nice school for the children. I look so many children, but the school  will be  an English medium school. So that, not only school but we will have all the activities of  Vaikuntha. That means Vedic culture, Vedic culture activities…there will be art and culture, Balinese is very nice in art. And a very important music, musical courses, and philosophy abut Krsna Consciousness. And even prasadam…international prasadam. We will bring recipes from Vaikuntha, Vaikuntha recipes. Vaikuntha recipes was…you know  there is a very nice big…big red gulab jamun, and we will have a nice preparation from black rice, palm sugar…that’s all Vaikunta items. So therefore we plan …if you have some government friend, we need at least 50 acre of lands. So We will have a very nice campus and will have a wonderful program, and all the scientist around the world will come and join the program. This is our prayer and by Prabhupada blessing, please pray so that you remain healthy and strong, become remain  strong Krsna Conscious following the principles, and in this way we can gone nicely in Krsna Consciousness.

I think we should walk now for a little right? Make little…I saw the gate was quiet nice, I want to take a picture there because I taking some sample here to finish  our temple in Manipur. Because when we  sitting, it is good to do some exercise. In Vaikuntha…all the inhabitants of Vaikuntha always do some spiritual exercise…(laughter)

Jai Srila Prabhupada ki..jai..

Jai Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Svami Maharaja ki…jai..

End.

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they…
Prabhupada: They are separate identity.
Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.
Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.
Ravindra Svarupa: When the jiva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

Morning Walk with Prabhupada

Prabhupada: No.
Ravindra Svarupa: No, they don’t. But when the body decays, doesn’t everything…
Prabhupada: No. Dead body so many germs come out.
Ravindra-svarupa: Oh.
Prabhupada: How it comes?
Svarupa Damodara: But that is different, though. When a body dies, then there are many germs from outside that…
Prabhupada: Living entities within the body, they come out, hundreds and thousands. They have not died. Suppose in this jungle there are so many living entities. If I die, what has got to do with them?
Svarupa Damodara: But science tries to understand what is life and in order to do that they just want to understand what is cell. Because science tries to understand what is life, and in order to do that they just want to study what is the cell because cells are the smallest living units of life. That is their understanding. So once they understand what a cell is, then they know what life is. That is their aim. So if the cells and the jivatma within the heart, they are different and they are independent, then they cannot conceive of just having a jivatma in the heart.
Prabhupada: That… The particular jivatma who has been given this body, he is living in the heart.
Ravindra Svarupa: But according to the scientists, our body is made up of little cells just like a brick wall is made up of so many individual bricks. Each… Like in one piece of skin there is…
Prabhupada: That’s all right. That is body. Just like I live in a house. The house is made of so many bricks. But I am not brick.
Ravindra Svarupa: But they say that…
Prabhupada: “They say!” They are foolish, we always say. Because I am living in a house consisting of so many bricks, it does not mean that I am brick.
Ravindra Svarupa: But is each cell an individual living entity?
Prabhupada: That I do not know. What do you mean by cell? But there are many living entities within this body. That we know.
Svarupa Damodara: That is different from the concept of cell. there are many living entities like germs…
Prabhupada: So concept of cell is the cell is just like bricks. Matter and spirit, two things are there. Either it must be matter or must be spirit.

DR TD Singh (Sripada M) Conversation With Prabhupada

Ravindra Svarupa: But it’s seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken’s body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being.
Prabhupada: So we have no objection.
Ravindra Svarupa: That is all right. So there is a spirit soul in every…
Prabhupada: No, no. All right or not all right I don’t say. But if they say like that, we have no objection
Svarupa Damodara: So the understanding to find out what life is is just to study what a cell is. That is their… They say that cells are composed of these molecules.
Prabhupada: What is the position of the cells when the man dies?
Svaupa Dämodara: The cells are dead. The cells that compose the body, they are dead. There are may be new living entities coming from different parts, but the cell that composed the human body is dead. They cannot reproduce anymore.
Prabhupada: So what is your proposal? That cell is life?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So can you develop life from the cells? As you said that you take the skin and you keep, so take the cells and develop into life.
Svarupa Damodara: That’s called culturing of the cells. They can culture it.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Whether you have done it.
Ravindra Svarupa: Well, they have that process called cloning?
Svarupa Damodara: No, no, this is the culture. That means take a cell from a living tissue, and you culture it and you supply the sufficient nutrients. Then theoretically they will grow forever. They will divide. They will…
Prabhupada: So they will grow to a human being?
Svarupa Damodara: Not a human being, but the cells just divide.
Prabhupada: Then an ant, an ant?
Svarupa Damodara: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is this? (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: (laughing) But the cell is still alive.
Prabhupada: But you said that as soon as the man dies, they also die.
Svarupa Damodara: That is what my question arose, how these, the relationship between the jivatma in cells and the jivatma in the heart.
Prabhupada: The jivatma… If the cells are living entities, then why do they not remain? Just like other living entities, they remain in the body and they come out. Even the man who has died, he is not there, but the other living entities are there.
Svarupa Damodara: So it seems that the cells are not independent. They are somehow controlled by the jivatma or the… Of course, Paramätmä is controlling everything. But I know sometimes the cells that compose the body of a living body, it seems that they are not independent; they are dependent.
Prabhupada: That may be. But what about your cultivating living entities from the cells?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that can be done. That they have already done.
Prabhupada: “That can be done,” you say everything. But you never done.
Ravindra Svarupa: They call it… You know that? They call it cloning?
Svarupa Damodara: Cloning is a different process, though. Cloning is just they take the life from the genes from different species and put this together and form a new species called hybrids of some living entity.

is a cell a life?

Ravindra Svarupa: The scientists say that the cells reproduce not by mating but by splitting in half…
Prabhupada: That is possible.
Svarupa Damodara: But once Srila Prabhupada told us, though, that I am in the heart and…
Prabhupada: I am an individual.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So that is my position. I live in the heart, and I go away. Other living entities may remain there.
Gurudäsa: When a heart is transplanted does the soul stay in the heart?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: I want to clarify another that Prabhupada told us that compared with the cells, I am a little bigger god, but the cells are smaller. Just like we are serving spiritual master. Similarly, the cells are serving. They have no choice in the…
Prabhupada: Yes. That is good idea. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So similarly, we were discussing with the Balavanta Prabhu one day about the… He was giving a nice example that in a kingdom where the king stays… Just like Srila Prabhupada’s example: living in an apartment. Srila Prabhupada and disciples and many other living entities stay in the same apartment, but a person, an individual, who knows his position, is to serve the order of the head of the apartment. But somebody doesn’t follow. He just goes away from the apartment. So Balavanta was asking what is the use of that? So similarly, when the cells… We can take out from one part of the body and can culture it, but what is the use? It produces, but actually it’s not really behaving as it should. It has no value.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are just like machine parts. Parts and parcels, they are helping the whole machine work.
Svarupa Damodara: About Guru däsa prabhu’s point, when the heart transplant, the soul stays in the subtle body. Is that sound?
Prabhupada: Yes. Soul is always staying in the subtle body, and the subtle body is left when he goes to God or kingdom of God.

Kingdom Of God

Ravindra Svarupa: One thing I’m trying to understand is how is it that the soul wants different things and then the material body acts according to the desires of the soul? So there is a cause and thereis an effect. Normally all our cause and effect, we see one material thing causing another material thing to happen. But how is it the spirit causes? What is the connection that spirit causes matter to do so many things? The spirit is manipulating the matter, but how? How is that contact there?
Prabhupada: Contact? It is already in contact. You are in the material body. It is already in contact.
Ravindra Svarupa: But I don’t understand how that contact is working.
Prabhupada: Contact is working under the direction of God. The individual soul desires, and God arranges to fulfill his desire with the help of prakrti.
Ravindra Svarupa: So when I want to move my hand, when I want to move this hand and so I will to move my hand, actually there has to be God involved in that action. Otherwise the hand won’t move.
Prabhupada: Paralyzed.
Ravindra Svarupa: Paralyzed.
Prabhupada: When your hand is paralyzed what you can do?
Ravindra Svarupa: Do actually I don’t directly do anything with matter. It is all Krishna’s doing everything with the matter.
Devotee: “Man proposes, God disposes.”
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ravindra Svarupa: Also I heard that also in every act of…, like if I want to blink my eyelid, also there is a demigod. What is the necessity of so many demigods? Why can’t Krishna directly…
Prabhupada: That how you can know? You are not the director. Director knows how many assistants he requires. You cannot know… You are under the direction. You are not director. [break] …not a mechanic he cannot understand why there are so many parts in the motor car. He is a fool. He doesn’t know. But a mechanic knows that these things are required.
Guru däsa: If the soul cannot be burnt, why does the desire to be burnt in the material world there? Burnt, drowned…
Svarüpa-damodara: Destroyed.
Prabhupada: He is not destroyed. When this body cannot work any more… Because this body is a machine. So a machine, if he does not move, then you, have to change to another machine.
Svarupa Damodara: The desire is not… Actually it is not burned; it just changed. The desire is changed to for a higher purpose. We have a choice between the subtle desires. Just change is the there from one to another.
Prabhupada: No, the same example: just like in a motor car you desire to go this side, but the machine is stopped, so you have to accept another motor car. It is like that, to fulfill your desire. After all it is a machine. Machine is matter. So it has got a time to work. When it is not working, then you change to another machine to fulfill your desire.
Guru däsa: If God, Krishna, desires the motor car to turn right, what makes the car turn left?
Prabhupada: Not Krishna desires. You desire. Krishna helps you. Krishna desires you give up all this nonsense and surrender to Him. Only He desires that. But if you don’t do, you will desire so many things.
Svarupa Damodara: It remains a mystery to great thinkers that though the soul is pure by nature and transcendental, but somehow it is trapped in the subtle and gross body and…
Prabhupada: Because he desired. Krishna bhuliya jiva bhoga vaïchä kare. When he wants to enjoy this material world… In the spiritual world there is only one enjoyer. And in the material world everyone is a enjoyer. He is planning in his own way how to enjoy. That is material world. In the spiritual world the enj…, is Krishna, and all others is helping in His enjoyment. But in material world everyone is thinking, “I am enjoyer,” and he is planning in his own way.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, modern philosophy is teaching that the forces of greed and lust and these things are greater than man, that actually… This concept that we are eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, they cannot accept that or understand that. They’re thinking that the powers of evil are much greater, and we’re just controlled by these things.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are fools. When a man’s lusty desire is very strong, he commits, what is called, rape, and he becomes complicated in criminal activities. Käma esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah. Why one is forced to do that? The cause is lusty desires, anger, greediness. So we are thinking we are master of this material world, but actually you are servant of these desires, käma, krodha, lobha, mohaù. And that is mäyä. He is acting as servant, but he’s thinking, “I am master.” That is mäyä, which is not the fact. Just like yesterday we were discussing that the women, they are acting as instrument of men, and they are thinking, “We have equal rights.” A man is utilizing her for his own purpose, and she is thinking “I am equal.”
Ravindra Svarupa: I think you really surprised them when you told them that this women’s liberation is just a trick by the men just to increase the class of prostitutes, available prostitutes.
Prabhupada: Free prostitutes. You go to a prostitute; you have to pay. Here they have arranged in such a way that free prostitute loitering on the street, and you can enjoy any one. This is their plan. They are rendered into beggar, and they are thinking equal rights.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, what does it mean that the soul is immovable?
Prabhupada: Immovable? Where it is?
Devotee (2): It states this in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: What is this? What is the verse?
Devotee (2): I don’t know exactly. It’s in the Second Chapter. Krishna’s describing the nature of the spirit soul to Arjuna. Does anyone know that verse?
Nitäi : Sthanur acalo ’yam…?
Prabhupada: Immovable in this sense: when he is fixed up in a certain body, then he is immovable from that body. Acalo ’yam sthanuù, sthanuù. Just like we’re speaking of transplanting the heart. That does not mean you move the soul. That is immovable.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the pure devotee’s spirit soul is not trapped by the gross and subtle bodies?
Prabhupada: Yes, when he is liberated by devotional service. Sa guëän samatétyaitän brahma-bhüyäya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].
Devotee (4): Prabhupada, when we try to explain to people that our philosophy of Krishna consciousness is authoritative and is coming from undisturbed men, learned men, that our spiritual master is not an ordinary man, what does it mean that he is not an ordinary man?
Prabhupada: He is not moved by the rascal scientist. (laughter) All rascals are moved by the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada… (laughter)
Prabhupada: (laughing) The scientist is angry.
Svarupa Damodara: The soul is trapped as well as untrapped in the material body…
Prabhupada: Because he wanted to be trapped.
Svarupa Damodara: But sometimes it is also untrapped. But sometimes he is also free.
Prabhupada: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here.
Svarupa Damodara: So is that philosophy, simultaneously one and different…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: …that acintya-bhedäbheda is also applicable in the case of…
Prabhupada: No, soul never mixes with the matter. Now I have come here, I am not mixed up with this jungle.
Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like it…
Prabhupada: It looks like. That is another thing. Asaìgo ’yaà puruñaù. The Vedic injunction is” “The puruña, the soul, is never complicated or mixed up with this.” Because just like oil and water, it never mixes. The oil keeps its separate identity in water.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. But if you put in a body, though they cannot be mixed, but they can stay together. Like in a chemical laboratory we take a test tube. In the test tube I can mix two solutions like, for example, mercury and water and oil. They will not mix, but they will stay in the same test tube. But a man who knows about the art of separating those three mixtures can do it very nicely.
Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, soul does not mix with the matter and by this art, transcendental knowledge, you can become out of it.
Svarupa Damodara: So that’s why we need a process and someone who knows the process of.
Prabhupada: The process is bhakti-yoga. Sa guëän samatétyaitän: [Bg. 14.26] “Anyone who has taken to this bhakti-yoga,” mäà ca vyabhicariëi bhakti-yogena yaù sevate, “he immediately becomes free from the mixture of these three guëas.” Sa gunän samatétyaitän brahma-bhüyäya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. “He again revives his Brahman nature.” Ahaà brahmäsmi. Brahma-bhütäh prasannätmä: [Bg. 18.54] Then he understands that ‘I have no connection with these all nonsense things. I am brahma-bhütäh.’ ”
Devotee (4): Prabhupada, we’re in this material world, in this human body, we’re having to work with this intelligence, with mind, material things. So there is a group of philosophers that say that actually because we’re a product, our mind, the way we’re thinking now is a product of our upbringing and our past, that actually we have no free will, but we’re forced to think and act in a certain way.
Prabhupada: Why you are forced?
Devotee (4): Because of conditioning.
Prabhupada: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent’s order.
Devotee (3): Prabhupada, is our desire to be eternal, blissful and full of knowledge…
Prabhupada: Now let me finish. You will never be able to understand if you jump over like that. Let one thing be understood.
Devotee (4): So he admits he’s conditioned, but still, there’s no free will. He says, “Yeah, so I’m in the prison. I’m imprisoned. I’m conditioned.”
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Free will… Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that “You go to jail.” But why he has come? He knows also that “When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom.” He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajnäna. Müdha. That is called müdha. He knows; still, he does.
Svarupa Damodara: He is taking a chance.
Prabhupada: Yes, that means he is becoming implicated.
Svarupa Damodara: He thinks that maybe he will be free, that…, if sometimes there’s also a chance that he will be caught.
Prabhupada: That is ajïäna. As soon as he, “may be,” that means ajïäna.
Devotee (4): So that’s why we originally fell down?
Prabhupada: Knowledge must be solid. There is no question “of maybe,” no. Just like if you touch fire, there is no question of “maybe.” It must burn you. You may think, “It may not burn,” but that is your foolishness.
Ravindra Svarupa: So they think that they can enjoy material nature but not be implicated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not implicated. He is already implicated. There is no question of maybe. Must.
Devotee (5): So when we fell down from the spiritual world…
Prabhupada: Then you must suffer. There is no question, “maybe.”
Devotee (5): When we fell down we were thinking, we could enjoy like that, in the same way?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is foolishness. And we are making our plan how to enjoy. That is our foolishness. And Krishna says “You give up all these nonsense plans. Come to Me.”
Devotee (5): Is this example proper, that a son is being well taken care of by the father, but sometimes he’s thinking, “I can enjoy more some other way?”
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, can I change the topic? Last, day before yesterday, morning, Prabhupada said that plants are more highly developed than the fish or the aquatics. But someone may ask what about the dolphins and the seals. They are regarded as very intelligent and highly developed.
Prabhupada: Every living entity has a particular type of intelligence which is greater than the other.
Svarupa Damodara: No, in the evolutionary cycle. Talking about the…
Prabhupada: No, evolutionary, cycle, the body may change, but every living entity has got a special advantage upon the others.
Ravindra Svarupa: What is the advantage of a tree, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: You see how they are standing there for five thousand years. You cannot do it. You cannot do it even for five minutes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually the trees are absolutely necessary for the survival of animals.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. We say nothing is necessary, simply Krishna is necessary. That is material conception: “This is necessary. This is necessary.” But Krishna says, “Nothing is necessary.” Sarva-dharmän parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You are simply planning and becoming entangled with so-called “necessary.”
Svarupa Damodara: But that is on the spiritual platform.
Prabhupada: You can create spiritual platform immediately. Sa guëän samatétyaitän [Bg. 14.26]. If you fully engage yourself in devotional service, immediately you are above this material conception.
Svarupa Damodara: So the concept that the three modes of material nature, they’re working all species, so it’s not the…
Prabhupada: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don’t go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, “If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?” That is your business, say that “If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?” They say like that, as if it is very necessary.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, is the subtle bodies in the subtle world, are they made up of subtle atoms?
Prabhupada: Subtle body means subtle atoms. So if we are in subtle body, so whatever there is in the subtle body, everything is there.
Devotee (6): Prabhupada, sometimes on Sankirtana we say that the human form of life is the highest because in this form we can understand God, and they say, “Well, what about the dolphins? You know, they’ve been doing experiments with the dolphins, and they’ve been finding out that the dolphins have their own conversations and things like that.”
Prabhupada: So what they have done with the dolphins? They are talking only. What they have done? Simply theorizing. [break]
Prabhupada: (in car) …improved anything.
Ravindra Svarupa: No.
Prabhupada: They are going on ciraà vicinvan. Forever they are simply thinking, and no improvement has done.
Ravindra Svarupa: Of course, they promise that they will be able to do so many…
Prabhupada: That everyone can, a child can also promise. That is another thing.
Ravindra Svarupa: [break] …the cells because they say that the cells are the fundamental unit of life and if they can understand even a very simple cell, then they think perhaps they can find the principles to understand everything living.
Prabhupada: Well, this “perhaps…”
Ravindra Svarupa: But they can’t understand the cell.
Prabhupada: Yes. So their “perhaps,” “maybe,” is going on. And that will continue.
Ravindra Svarupa: Why does the living entity wish to speculate in this way?
Prabhupada: He has been given a special advantage to think of God, but instead of thinking God, he is thinking all these rubbish things, which he will never be able to fulfill. Misusing. The thinking power he is misusing.
Ravindra Svarupa: So this mental speculation or this “perhaps” and “maybe” is a misuse of his specific power to understand God.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Athäto brahma jijnasa. The life, human life, is meant for enquiring about God, and God is explaining Himself about God. Instead of studying Bhagavad-gita very scrutinizingly, they are wasting time. “The cells, this, that, atom.” That’s all, wasting time Just like we are driving this car. So we can utilize it for going from one place to another. So there is no need of studying how the car is moving, how many parts are there.
Ravindra Svarupa: But still, people seem to have always a curiosity about these things.
Prabhupada: Yes. That curiosity is explained in the Bhagavad-gita that it is a machine and there are many subtle parts of the machine. So you have been given this machine. You utilize it properly. Why you are busy in studying the different parts? The different parts are there undoubtedly. But you cannot actually understand.
Ravindra Svarupa: We’re going to take a picture, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: All right. (end)

(ACBSP. Morning Walk, July 14, 1975, Philadelphia.)

So in conclusion what we are engineering through the cloning process is a living being who would ordinarily by generative natural selection of proproirtership be of an inferior nature in the “pecking order” of domination over the person who pervades the body when cloning takes place. Under normal insemination that is attracted by the conglomerate consciousness of the mother and father of the issue, and the subsequent nurturing and growth, and bonding that takes place to enable the “human psyche” to delevop properly, enabling security, love, appreciation, gratitude etc to develop, some of the finer sentiments of human culture. Without which insensitive, impersonal, artificially conceived, laboritory harvested and grown, and then trained……. certainly leaves something of a vacuum, a vast lacking in what it takes to be a REAL and cultured member of the human race.

See my link here to reveal the technicalities of the nature of the Jivatma (soul). This page looks at the soul who inhabits a body, any body, every body, and reveals simply the cheating nature of the material scientists. You may remember in the days when they said they would create life in the test tube….. but then actually what they did was to replicate the conditions of the womb in a test tube and then follow the same process of insemination but in a lab’ in a test tube – simply trying to re-invent the wheel, and got paid millions of tax payer dollars for doing it.

BHAGAVAD-GITA 14:4

BHAGAVAD-GITA 16:9

BHAGAVAD-GITA 16:10

Source:

http://www.hknet.org.nz/cloning.htm

SP: Therefore they are suffering only for the matter of knowing something, kevala krishanti.kevala [indistinct word]. Krishanti means taking trouble unnecessarily.  What do you gain by this knowledge? You cannot solve your problems.

BSDS: That is why the brains of the scientists are very busy in thinking all these things, how to try to understand this natural phenomena, all the time busy.

SP: Therefore Bhagavat says, idaḿ hi puḿsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā[i] . Your education, brain should be uitlised how to know God. Not that how the chemical is deposited, you see.  avicyuto ‘rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Rather try to describe how Krsna, God, has made this arrangement. Then it will be kirtana. Simply add this verse that God has deposited this way, this way. That will be described in the Bhagavatam, one after another how creation is being made. But the original point is creator is God. How God is creating, if we describe scientifically, that means it is  kirtana, chanting the glories of the Lord. That they will not do…they’ll end.. “perhaps, maybe” that’s all. “Perhaps, maybe” that’s all. At least Einstein at last he admitted “maybe there is God” like that?

BSDS: Yes. He believes that the natural laws are governed by controllers, different controllers

SP: Oh he believes?

BSDS: Einstein believes. Like  Einstein’s- one of his -  like Fermi or Dirac-  there exists a very famous scientist, almost contemporary and he did not believe in the existence of God. When Einstein developed his theory of relativity, Heisenberg and  Fermi, and Max Planck in Germany. So they invited Einstein and so  Einstein was thinking that these laws are controlled by some unknown controller. He did not know but so Fermi and this Heisenberg -..

SP: Bhagavat avigyatha Everything is there ….‘avigyatha friend.’ I’ve got a friend but I do not know he’s helping behind. Avigyatha.

BSDS: Actually, we encounter everyday the existence of the supreme brain. Just for example, in the chemical laboratory, we make different crystals like different salts and they have very definite and complete organized crystalline structures, different from each type of crystal and these are made just automatically. No one – just mix some things, and then the crystal grows with a definite geometrical shape, beautiful arrangements all the crystals.

SP: What is that crystals?

BSDS: So for example, salts of chromium, magnesium and nickel, these they combine with different anionic radicals, and then, just keep together for a few days.

SP: Crystals…

BSDS: Yes, these are called crystals. Like quartz – quartz is a crystal. In a diamond for example. These are called crystals in chemical terms.

Devotee: Also snowflakes…

BSDS: Yes, snow also…

Devotee: Snowflakes, water…

BSDS: Yes, the water is a definite shaped crystal, it cannot be changed. It always remains the definite crystal structure.

SP: They are called molecules?

BSDS: Yes, these are  called molecules. They call the molecular framework. These are arranged by – it’s a beautiful, beautiful arrangement. Like for example, sodium chloride has hexagonal shape, and geometrical, and beautiful arrangement in the crystal structure. They’re studying by a technique called x-ray crystallography.   So they make a small crystal and put under the x-ray beam and then X-ray beam is photographed, and from the photograph, we can see where the

sodium atom is staying in the space and chlorine is staying in the space and they have a beautiful picture in the film.  From there, you can understand the arrangement of the atoms.

SP: And we understand within the atom there is God.  aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham[ii]

Devotee: The snow…

BSDS: Yes.

Devotee: When the snow falls each flake of snow is perfectly symmetrical. Different patterns and each pattern is different from every other pattern.

BSDS: Yes, for example, this coal tar, these are different arrangements of  so called molecules of benzene. These molecules are hexagonal, the six sides are completely all the same, symmetrical. What happens is, one after another, there are different layers of this six faced hexagonal molecules and so they combine together and form this coal tar. The same thing with diamond also.  The structure is very similar with coal tar.  But only the – layers are different…

SP:  [indistinct verse]

BSDS: These are all arranged by most powerful brain.

SP: As soon as you accept brain, He must be a person.

BSDS: Yes.

SP: So God is a person. (pause) God cannot be impersonal (pause). By this scientific explanation, come to the conclusion, “God is a person”.  And we accept Him as supreme, paramah…Ishvarah paramah krsna, supreme brain. Acintya medha, inconceivable brain. These are.descriptions. Jiva Goswami has said that unless you accept God having inconceivable brain, He cannot be God. (pause) Small teeny seed, there is a big banyan tree, whole potency is there [indistinct words]. Similarly the whole universe is also put in a small atomic grain, that is coming out from Vishnu’s body and they are developing this.

Devotee: Sometimes in the ancient Egyptian graves, they find grains. When they plant those grains, they again grow even after they’ve been in the graves 2000 years, dormant.

SP: seed is [indistinct]  Bijam mam sarva-bhutanam. What is the time?

Devotee: Seven o’clock.

SP: If we present scientifically about the existence of God, that will be a great service. Think over discuss, here’s a scientist and try to write articles. (pause) He’s not protesting, he’s supporting us, so this is a great chance.

Devotee: Last night I was listening to that tape made with that Indian scientist in your room. Such a rascal. His argument was so easily defeated. It all came down to he doesn’t believe and we believe. He doesn’t believe in Krishna and we believe in Krishna. That’s the ultimate conclusion.

BSDS:  His arguments were self defeating.

SP: eh?

BSDS: Self defeating. He says something and say again opposes .

SP: Self-contradictory.

Devotee: He had to admit that that there was some kind of intelligence behind [indistinct word]’

SP: (laughs) Then why not God?

Devotee: He makes a contradiction.

SP: Intelligence means person. Brain means person.

Devotee: He has to admit God. We asked him If  he thought everything just happened by chance, or random, he said  ‘ no, there’s some kind of plan, some kind of intelligence,  order.’ Then later on we asked him if the universe was perfect- if the complete the universe was perfect., He said ‘no’ –  contradiction.

SP: He said universe is not perfect?

Devotee: Yeah. That’s what we scientists work for – to make it perfect.

SP:  Yes.

(sound of car starting)

SP: Our knowledge is perfect because it is coming from Krishna.  The Supreme perfect. (pause)

What is this boat, shipping?

Devotee: Fishing.

(SP chanting Hare Krishna)

SP: [indistinct sloka] The greatest scientist is the Krsna conscious person.

BSDS: In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says to Arjuna ,17^th Chapter, up to 17^th chapter,  surrender unto Krishna and then in the end, in the 18^th Chapter, Krsna says, I’ve given you the full knowledge, now it is up to you to whether to accept or not to accept, so that all shows how merciful is Krishna..

SP: He has  given us full freedom.  Full freedom we cannot enjoy, that is not possible , but as far as the question of our constitution is concerned, there is  freedom. Just like the parents give the child freedom, that is not full freedom  but he does not feel.

Devotee: (while driving) Ooh, man almost got hit. Not very attentive (laughter).

SP: (chants for a while) The devotee of the Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu , what to speak of the scientists, even great demigods like Brahma, Indra ,they are also considered [indistinct words].

(chants)

SP: I think there’s a little garden in front of our house?

Devotee: small but..

SP: They are taking care?

Devotee: They started but its being neglected for now.

SP: They should take care.

(End)

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto ‘rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.

Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry (SB 1.5.22)

[ii] eko ‘py asau racayituḿ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiḿ

yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ

aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham-

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore (Brahma Samhita 5.35)

Transcriber: Bhaktin Preetha

Editor: Rupachandra Das

Date: 16^th August 2007

]]> http://www.sripadanectar.com/%e2%80%9cif-we-describe-scientifically-that-means-it-is-kirtana%e2%80%9d.html/feed 0 http://www.sripadanectar.com/if-you-accept-the-law-of-relativity-you-have-to-accept-god.html http://www.sripadanectar.com/if-you-accept-the-law-of-relativity-you-have-to-accept-god.html#comments Sat, 03 Oct 2009 09:44:02 +0000 Sripada http://www.sripadanectar.com/?p=90 (Here is a Conversations of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sripada Maharaj (DR. TD Singh, Ph.D and others devotees which take place in Los Angeles. transcribe by Singapore Devotees)

Devotee: Like night is only night in relationship to day , big is only big in relationship to small.

SP: So they accept there is small and there is big?

Devotee: Relativity.

SP: Yes. Everything is relative.

BSDS:  Yes. It’s related by time and space. To call five seconds or ten seconds, it’s related, because nothing is absolute.

SP: Why they do not understand relativity of brain?

BSDS: Yes, they are also to understand that, but they haven’t proposed yet.

SP: Eh?

BSDS: They haven’t proposed, so far.

Devotee: The formula is, what is it? “Energy equals…”

BSDS:  e= mc squared?

Devotee: Time times?

BSDS: Mass times the square of velocity of light.

Devotee: the what?

BSDS: Of the velocity of light.

SP: In psychology, there is study –  brain substance. Brain substance of all men are not equal. Is it known to the scientist? Brain substance.

BSDS:  Yeah. I think it’s known because when Einstein died, they tried to preserve the brain of Einstein, thinking that his brain was different from others.

SP: If it was not different, then how you can distinguish.

BSDS: The brain substance is different, that’s you have the-  intelligence different.

SP:  According to brain substance, there is difference of  intelligence.

Devotee:  They attribute to a lot more factors too like environment, development -

SP: Anyway. So, relative brain, This is like night (inaudible) duration of life of Brahma is different from the duration of life of the ant So, relatively there are so many different species of life. Relatively. Do the scientists agree or not?

Devotee: Yes.

SP: Eh? Then why there shouldn’t be a perfect brain, which is God.

Devotee: The atheists they say that…

SP: It is not a question of atheist, it is question of science.

Devotee: They say the scientific conclusion is that relativity extends for infinity.

SP: Yes, that infinity, the infinite brain is God.

Devotee:  They say there is no need for a one infinite.

SP: No, there is need because you are operator in the laboratory. Hydrogen, oxygen, you can make one glass of water. So why not the biggest brain make the pacific ocean.  How can we deny it? If we accept the law of relativity, then just like a ant. It can bore holes , small in the drain. You can make a tunnel. Similarly one can make biggest tunnel.

Devotee: They say that you are just material energy and water is material energy.-

SP: Everyone is material energy.  It is working relatively  in accordance to relative brain and body. So ultimately, infinite brain is (inaudible).

BSDS: That infinite brain is absolute.

SP: Yes. He is not dependent on anyone.

Devotee: They say, they say that, small relativity, it’s like, we’re relative to our capacity, so everything is relative.

SP: Yes.

Devotee: God also has to be relative.

SP: Yes. God is relative, you are small, He is big. That’s all

BSDS: Yes.

SP: We are teeny and He’s infinite.

Devotee: So on that basis also we can say that you are God over the ant.

SP: Yes. That we have explained every time that we are not supreme but in comparison to the ant I am God. Similarly the ant is also God in comparison to the microbe.

Devotee: They say that relativity extends there is no supreme supreme.

SP: eh?

Devotee:  Just relative supreme.

SP: Relative supreme indeed. Just like you are God to the ant, similarly He is supreme God to everyone.

Devotee: That they won’t agree.

SP: Why they shall not agree? Eh, why they shall not agree.

BSDS: Because they do not have complete information.

SP:  There is no question of information, it is a question of knowledge and philosophy. As I see it, relative, this is small, this is big, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this, bigger than this, bigger than this. Then, you find that no more bigger. Then that is God.

Devotee: They say that relative scale, that small and bigger that goes on forever. It never stops.

SP: Yes, that’s alright, that’s alright. But you have to accept somebody bigger that you.

BSDS: So, in the –in the material time scale, there is no absolute.

SP: That is explained in the Vedas, nitya nityanam. God means that means that He is also eternal, we are also eternal, everything is eternal. As they say, everything is existing, but the operation is different. Operation is relative. God means His operational activity is much more higher, important than yours. [Pause] You have a small body like this. If you are asked to pick up something from the midst of the ocean, you cannot do that. But if one can assume a very big body, in the midst of the ocean, the water is like this, up to this. How can you deny it?

Devotee: Well they don’t deny that. They simply deny the existence of an absolute supreme.

SP: There is no question of absolute. You have to accept bigger than you. [Pause] Just like this small bird, it is walking in the water with beach. The water may be up to this. Somebody may come (inaudile).

BSDS: Making a lot of noise.

Devotee: Well they wouldn’t deny that.

SP:  If you accept that, then it is alright, that is God.  He is greater than you, that’s all. Same example.  Hydrogen, oxygen. Hydrogen, oxygen is there. You make. You can make a glass of water in the laboratory. The hydrogen, oxygen is there, but you cannot mix, big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen and make a sea. But one who can do that is bigger than us.

Devotee: Because as relativity extends on, that discounts the importance of any one person.

SP: Yes, that’s important. You cannot make the sea. You can make a glass of water. Therefore one who has made the sea is much more important than yourself.  How can you deny it.

Devotee: They say that one’s made water is more important than one who has made the sea.

SP: Eh? That’s alright. As long as you accept that there is somebody bigger than you who can make the sea. That means somebody bigger than you, that’s alright. But you accept that you are small, he is big. [Pause] That we have explained in the Brahma Samhita, that the Maha Vishnu, from his breathing, millions of universes are coming. And again  - yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso. This Mahavishnu is only a portion –  plenary expansion of Krishna. Maha Vishnu is also nothing. That we accept, relatively, more, more, more, more.

Devotee: Their point of argument is that they don’t accept that there is a transcendental energy that exists.

SP: Never mind that. But you have to accept that you are not even an insignificant ant before Him. That you accept. Then our proposition is finished.

Devotee: But they…

SP: You are nothing but an insignificant ant in comparison to His power.

Devotee: But they think, it’s like, the ant may have insignificant power, but the ant is not increasing its power, but human beings are increasing their power.

SP: Could be, but for the time being, you  are nothing but an insignificant creature.Just like anyone is trying to become a very big businessman. Not that before becoming a Rockefeller, he can claim that I am Rockefeller. That is nonsense. You become Rockefeller, then you say.

Devotee: Just the possibility of becoming one intoxicates them.

SP: The possibility is not fact. Everyone has got the possibility of becoming a Rockefeller. But that does not mean everyone is Rockefeller. That is another (?foolishness).

Devotee: But the possibility props them up, intoxicates them.

SP: Eh?

Devotee: The possibility intoxicates them.

SP: Then you can think that all the banks belong to me. That is another intoxication. If you want to be happy, then all the banks of Los Angeles, they belong to me.  I am the proprietor. The intoxication gives you some relief, then enjoy that, but actually you’re a madman, if you think like that.

Devotee: Some human beings have done that.

SP: Uh?

Devotee: Some human beings have done that.

SP: But you are not, first of all you accept. Some may have done, some may be done but you are not. First of all you accept that. (Inaudible).

BSDS: The-the problem of relativity is alright. So for example, I can make five bowls and one bowl would be smaller than others. So like that, I can make five different kinds of bowls, but these are related to the others but I am making these bowls you know. So there has to be a person who can make these related things.

SP: Yes.

BSDS: Otherwise there is no question of relativity, if there’s someone who is operating these relative things.

Devotee: They say that relative energy creates relative manifestations. The energy which is making the bowls is still relative.

BSDS: Yes, but there has to be a person who is engaged in making these related things, otherwise, there will be no relativity.

Devotee: That’s still relative energy.

SP: Whatever it may be. Somebody is operating this relative law. [Pause] We explain many times that everyone has got  [inaudible] relative.

BSDS: Yes.

Devotee: In modern-modern physics, [inaudible] personality, intelligence, everything is simply different combinations of material energy.

SP: That’s alright. That is relative.

Devotee: There is no necessary of question of a person being [inaudible] everything is simply atoms.

SP: Because you are person, therefore everything must be person. You are studying as a person. You are not a dead body.

Devotee: That person , that personality is also just atoms in different orbits.

SP:  That’s alright, we agree-we agree. Therefore we say see God, karuna.

BSDS: We are like atomic particles.

SP: We accept that. Everything person.

Devotee: Everything is atom and atoms are not persons.

SP: Why not? We say that within the atom, there is God.

Devotee: That they can’t see.

SP: Eh?

Devotee: That they can’t see.

SP: They cannot see so many things, rascals. What to speak of God (laughter). We cannot see what is there within the ocean. That does not mean, there is no living entity.   Your seeing power is defective. [Pause]  A small microbes [inaudible]  Within that micro-body, it is all physiological machine, but we cannot see.

Devotee: [inaudible]

SP: eh?

Devotee:  If a crazy man comes up and says…

SP: Practical means you have to accept, that you are a small insignificant and that is very very big. That is practical. How can you deny it? As you can create a glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen, so another person who can create the sea by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, he must be greater than you, you have to accept.

Devotee:  [inaudible] its all the same energy anyway.

SP: That’s alright but you cannot operate it. Energy is there, material is there. [Pause] If you accept the law of relativity you have to accept God. What you think?

BSDS: There’s no question about it. [Pause] In other words, God is infinite and we are finite particles of small living ….

SP: Yes.

BSDS: ..fragments.

SP: Anor aniyan mahato mahiyan. Smaller than the smallest, bigger than the biggest.  [Pause] (inaudible verse). You are creating one glass of water by mixing hydrogen, oxygen. God is creating millions of billions of pacific ocean simultaneously. Just like seasonal changes, as soon as  the season changes, millions of trees immediately grows leaves. Immediately. When there is a change of season immediately millions of leaves (inaudible). This is God’s energy. The energy is working in the same way. You can also create one leaf. If you take the procedure, you can make artificially one leaf but that is also not perfect. But God has created millions of trees, and millions and trillions of leaves within a second. That you can see.

Devotee: They won’t credit that to a person.

SP: eh?

Devotee:  They won’t give any credit.

SP: But that is their foolishness. (laughter)  Therefore they are rascal. You kick him with shoe. (Inaudible) No, I’m alright. (laughter)

Devotee: They say, just like you build a big fire may, that produces 100 degrees, a small fire produces five degrees, its still fire.

SP: That’s alright. You are also living entity, he is also living entity, there is no change.  You also fire, he is also fire. But you are spark, he is big fire. That is difference.  A spark is also fire. Who denies it?

Devotee: They say it is all one.

SP: All one in quality, not in quantity. That is our philosophy.

Devotee: They say the whole material energy as being….

SP: That’s alright. Difference of quantity is there, that is relativity..And I’m trying to – You can make a glass of water. That quantity and if I can make a pacific ocean,  that quantity is not one, but the water is one, that’s all. And the process of manufacturing is also one. But the quantity is different.

Devotee: Because if the material energy is the same, then there is no need for a God.

SP:  No, there is need of God. You cannot make the Pacific Ocean. That God is needed.

BSDS: We simply say that God’s power is inconceivable.

SP: Yes. Inconceivable to you, but not inconceivable to Him

BSDS: Yes

SP: He knows His business.

BSDS: Because our brain is so teeny, compared with His, so we cannot conceive his power.

SP: Yes, Inconceivable.

[Pause]

SP:  Just like the contents of the sun, there is no [inaudible], so that at night, there is no need of .

BSDS: Electricity?

SP: Electricity light.

Devotee:  Assuming who has created the sun has created us

SP: That is one after another. If by creation of something, by that energy, another thing is created, another thing is created. That is the law of creation.

Devotee: They won’t see anyone behind that.

SP: What power of seeing. That is their foolishness. What they can see. How far they can see?  So called seeing disease is childish. What you can see?

Devotee: Dr. Frog’s philosophy.

SP: Yes, Dr. Frog’s .

BSDS: They say that, so called, discoveries by scientists are nothing but imitation just as

(New tape)

BSDS: Yes at the same time, for example discoveries like aeroplane. They discovered because they imitated the flying of birds. They saw how the birds are flying so they imitated two wings, like shape of a bird. This is not their creation. This is just imitation from nature. Similarly, all discoveries are just imitations.

SP: Still they cannot imitate. Just like a small bird  also flying. So what machinery is there? If they can invent that machinery, (inaudible) question is over. But he cannot see that. The bird is also flying, the aeroplane is also flying but you are flying the aeroplane on the strength of petroleum but in the bird there is no petroleum. The bird is creating its own energy from within. Machine is so made that it is flying without petroleum. Why don’t you do that?

BSDS: Because the living force. In a bird there is living force.

Devotee: They think they can.

SP: They have not done it. Again that same thing..

Devotee: In the future.

SP: In future. That is nonsense. (Laughter). When you do it, then you say.

BSDS: Say for example, computer. Computer is just like human brain. I mean its different to a degree but it works like a human brain. But of course there is a operator in the –

SP: The human brain is there. It is pushing the body. Without human brain you cannot work. The human brain is there. It is not human brain. The machine itself is not human brain. The human brain outside the machine works.

Devotee:  They are saying they will make a human brain.

SP: That’s alright, see again the future (laughter). This foolishness is there. But we don’t accept such foolishness – the future. Everyone can say in future I shall become like this.

BSDS: That is why in one branch of science, so called trying to solve in future, say for example, they already trying to tell what is going to happen in two thousand years. So they say in two thousand years for example what type of dinner is going to have today so –

SP: But he cannot say what is going to happen to him in two thousand years.

BSDS: He cannot say even I mean, tomorrow what is going to happen

Devotee: He will be existing as much as he is existing now because the energy will all be conserved.

SP: The energy is always existing. You don’t require to think of what will happen. The energy is existing. Why you bother yourself? Let the energy do its own (inaudible). Actually it is being done. Just like Mr. Johnson, he was president and he was always busy, what will happen, what will happen. Now the election is over and still the government is going on without him. The government is going on without him. But when he was in the government he was thinking, oh what will happen.

Devotee: I’d say the government is going on because he was conscientious like that when he was the president.

SP: Yes but without him, the government can go on. Why does he not think like that?

Devotee: (inaudible) we have to think like that. Just like if I thought I don’t have to do anything because it will go on anyway

SP:  No, if you accept that energies are already there then why should you bother. The energy is (inaudible).

Devotee: But I am also that energy. If I am acting –

SP: But when you are not acting the energy is going on. So your action or no action, it doesn’t matter.

Devotee: (Inaudible) we should say it doesn’t matter whether I chant Hare Krishna or not because the energy is the same.

SP: Yes, that right. But you do not belong to that. We belong to what you call discriminating human being. You want to create something for advancement, we are living entity, we want advancement. And advancement means I have to do that. If I want to go, advance, then I have to walk. Your walking will not do, my walking is required if I want to advance.

BSDS: So planning for something is necessary. Without planning thinking that the energy is everywhere we cannot just -

SP: Planning is necessary. That planning should be within the big planning. You cannot plan anything whimsically.

BSDS: Mmhmm.

(Pause).

SP: So prove existence of God by this law of relativity.

(Pause).

BSDS: Actually everything is working under the laws of nature. Nothing remains stopped. Everything works.

SP: (inaudible verse). That is the instruction in the Bhagavad Gita. When Arjuna was declining to fight , Krishna ultimately says don’t think that all these men who are gathered here will go on. It is already planned they should die. You fight or not fight, they will die. That plan is already there. (inaudible verse) We have to endeavour for Krishna consciousness and nothing else. Everything is there. That is the point. Because you are living entity, you’ve got little independence. By misuse of independence you become out of Krishna’s association. So we have to try for that to again go back to the association. Nothing else. Other things will go on. You don’t require to become a scientist or physicist or this or that. You don’t require. Simply required to chant Hare Krishna, that’s all. That is your only requirement. (inaudible) scientist . We are trying to please Krishna that’s all. But things are going on. (pause) Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja , you simply surrender , that is your duty. No other duty. (verse).

(End)

Transcriber: Bhaktin Preetha

Editor: Rupachandra Das

Date: 10/05/2008