Archive for the ‘Conversation with Prabhupada’ Category

(ACBSP. Morning Walk, July 14, 1975, Philadelphia.)

Svarupa Damodara: The question that I wrote to Srila Prabhupada, the answer that Srila Prabhupada gave me was that the cells in the body and the jivatma that resides in the heart, they are different living entities. But my understanding was directed to the relationship between the two, the jivatma in the cells and the jivatma in the heart, how they are related, how they…
Prabhupada: They are separate identity.
Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like, though, in the material body the one cannot exist without another. They look like interdependent.
Prabhupada: That may be, but still, they are individuals.
Ravindra Svarupa: When the jiva in the heart dies, then all the other cells in the body also have to die.

Morning Walk with Prabhupada

Prabhupada: No.
Ravindra Svarupa: No, they don’t. But when the body decays, doesn’t everything…
Prabhupada: No. Dead body so many germs come out.
Ravindra-svarupa: Oh.
Prabhupada: How it comes?
Svarupa Damodara: But that is different, though. When a body dies, then there are many germs from outside that…
Prabhupada: Living entities within the body, they come out, hundreds and thousands. They have not died. Suppose in this jungle there are so many living entities. If I die, what has got to do with them?
Svarupa Damodara: But science tries to understand what is life and in order to do that they just want to understand what is cell. Because science tries to understand what is life, and in order to do that they just want to study what is the cell because cells are the smallest living units of life. That is their understanding. So once they understand what a cell is, then they know what life is. That is their aim. So if the cells and the jivatma within the heart, they are different and they are independent, then they cannot conceive of just having a jivatma in the heart.
Prabhupada: That… The particular jivatma who has been given this body, he is living in the heart.
Ravindra Svarupa: But according to the scientists, our body is made up of little cells just like a brick wall is made up of so many individual bricks. Each… Like in one piece of skin there is…
Prabhupada: That’s all right. That is body. Just like I live in a house. The house is made of so many bricks. But I am not brick.
Ravindra Svarupa: But they say that…
Prabhupada: “They say!” They are foolish, we always say. Because I am living in a house consisting of so many bricks, it does not mean that I am brick.
Ravindra Svarupa: But is each cell an individual living entity?
Prabhupada: That I do not know. What do you mean by cell? But there are many living entities within this body. That we know.
Svarupa Damodara: That is different from the concept of cell. there are many living entities like germs…
Prabhupada: So concept of cell is the cell is just like bricks. Matter and spirit, two things are there. Either it must be matter or must be spirit.

Ravindra Svarupa: But it’s seen that the scientists, they can take some skin from your body and by putting in different solutions can keep that skin itself alive for such a long time. They have taken the heart of a chicken out of the chicken’s body and then kept it beating for so many hours even though that heart was away from the main chicken. Or they take some other tissue and keep it alive. So they say that each cell is an individual living being.
Prabhupada: So we have no objection.
Ravindra Svarupa: That is all right. So there is a spirit soul in every…
Prabhupada: No, no. All right or not all right I don’t say. But if they say like that, we have no objection
Svarupa Damodara: So the understanding to find out what life is is just to study what a cell is. That is their… They say that cells are composed of these molecules.
Prabhupada: What is the position of the cells when the man dies?
Svaupa Dämodara: The cells are dead. The cells that compose the body, they are dead. There are may be new living entities coming from different parts, but the cell that composed the human body is dead. They cannot reproduce anymore.
Prabhupada: So what is your proposal? That cell is life?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So can you develop life from the cells? As you said that you take the skin and you keep, so take the cells and develop into life.
Svarupa Damodara: That’s called culturing of the cells. They can culture it.
Prabhupada: That’s all right. Whether you have done it.
Ravindra Svarupa: Well, they have that process called cloning?
Svarupa Damodara: No, no, this is the culture. That means take a cell from a living tissue, and you culture it and you supply the sufficient nutrients. Then theoretically they will grow forever. They will divide. They will…
Prabhupada: So they will grow to a human being?
Svarupa Damodara: Not a human being, but the cells just divide.
Prabhupada: Then an ant, an ant?
Svarupa Damodara: No.
Prabhupada: Then what is this? (laughter)
Svarupa Damodara: (laughing) But the cell is still alive.
Prabhupada: But you said that as soon as the man dies, they also die.
Svarupa Damodara: That is what my question arose, how these, the relationship between the jivatma in cells and the jivatma in the heart.
Prabhupada: The jivatma… If the cells are living entities, then why do they not remain? Just like other living entities, they remain in the body and they come out. Even the man who has died, he is not there, but the other living entities are there.
Svarupa Damodara: So it seems that the cells are not independent. They are somehow controlled by the jivatma or the… Of course, Paramätmä is controlling everything. But I know sometimes the cells that compose the body of a living body, it seems that they are not independent; they are dependent.
Prabhupada: That may be. But what about your cultivating living entities from the cells?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that can be done. That they have already done.
Prabhupada: “That can be done,” you say everything. But you never done.
Ravindra Svarupa: They call it… You know that? They call it cloning?
Svarupa Damodara: Cloning is a different process, though. Cloning is just they take the life from the genes from different species and put this together and form a new species called hybrids of some living entity.

is a cell a life?

Ravindra Svarupa: The scientists say that the cells reproduce not by mating but by splitting in half…
Prabhupada: That is possible.
Svarupa Damodara: But once Srila Prabhupada told us, though, that I am in the heart and…
Prabhupada: I am an individual.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes.
Prabhupada: So that is my position. I live in the heart, and I go away. Other living entities may remain there.
Gurudäsa: When a heart is transplanted does the soul stay in the heart?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: I want to clarify another that Prabhupada told us that compared with the cells, I am a little bigger god, but the cells are smaller. Just like we are serving spiritual master. Similarly, the cells are serving. They have no choice in the…
Prabhupada: Yes. That is good idea. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So similarly, we were discussing with the Balavanta Prabhu one day about the… He was giving a nice example that in a kingdom where the king stays… Just like Srila Prabhupada’s example: living in an apartment. Srila Prabhupada and disciples and many other living entities stay in the same apartment, but a person, an individual, who knows his position, is to serve the order of the head of the apartment. But somebody doesn’t follow. He just goes away from the apartment. So Balavanta was asking what is the use of that? So similarly, when the cells… We can take out from one part of the body and can culture it, but what is the use? It produces, but actually it’s not really behaving as it should. It has no value.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are just like machine parts. Parts and parcels, they are helping the whole machine work.
Svarupa Damodara: About Guru däsa prabhu’s point, when the heart transplant, the soul stays in the subtle body. Is that sound?
Prabhupada: Yes. Soul is always staying in the subtle body, and the subtle body is left when he goes to God or kingdom of God.

Kingdom Of God

Ravindra Svarupa: One thing I’m trying to understand is how is it that the soul wants different things and then the material body acts according to the desires of the soul? So there is a cause and thereis an effect. Normally all our cause and effect, we see one material thing causing another material thing to happen. But how is it the spirit causes? What is the connection that spirit causes matter to do so many things? The spirit is manipulating the matter, but how? How is that contact there?
Prabhupada: Contact? It is already in contact. You are in the material body. It is already in contact.
Ravindra Svarupa: But I don’t understand how that contact is working.
Prabhupada: Contact is working under the direction of God. The individual soul desires, and God arranges to fulfill his desire with the help of prakrti.
Ravindra Svarupa: So when I want to move my hand, when I want to move this hand and so I will to move my hand, actually there has to be God involved in that action. Otherwise the hand won’t move.
Prabhupada: Paralyzed.
Ravindra Svarupa: Paralyzed.
Prabhupada: When your hand is paralyzed what you can do?
Ravindra Svarupa: Do actually I don’t directly do anything with matter. It is all Krishna’s doing everything with the matter.
Devotee: “Man proposes, God disposes.”
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ravindra Svarupa: Also I heard that also in every act of…, like if I want to blink my eyelid, also there is a demigod. What is the necessity of so many demigods? Why can’t Krishna directly…
Prabhupada: That how you can know? You are not the director. Director knows how many assistants he requires. You cannot know… You are under the direction. You are not director. [break] …not a mechanic he cannot understand why there are so many parts in the motor car. He is a fool. He doesn’t know. But a mechanic knows that these things are required.
Guru däsa: If the soul cannot be burnt, why does the desire to be burnt in the material world there? Burnt, drowned…
Svarüpa-damodara: Destroyed.
Prabhupada: He is not destroyed. When this body cannot work any more… Because this body is a machine. So a machine, if he does not move, then you, have to change to another machine.
Svarupa Damodara: The desire is not… Actually it is not burned; it just changed. The desire is changed to for a higher purpose. We have a choice between the subtle desires. Just change is the there from one to another.
Prabhupada: No, the same example: just like in a motor car you desire to go this side, but the machine is stopped, so you have to accept another motor car. It is like that, to fulfill your desire. After all it is a machine. Machine is matter. So it has got a time to work. When it is not working, then you change to another machine to fulfill your desire.
Guru däsa: If God, Krishna, desires the motor car to turn right, what makes the car turn left?
Prabhupada: Not Krishna desires. You desire. Krishna helps you. Krishna desires you give up all this nonsense and surrender to Him. Only He desires that. But if you don’t do, you will desire so many things.
Svarupa Damodara: It remains a mystery to great thinkers that though the soul is pure by nature and transcendental, but somehow it is trapped in the subtle and gross body and…
Prabhupada: Because he desired. Krishna bhuliya jiva bhoga vaïchä kare. When he wants to enjoy this material world… In the spiritual world there is only one enjoyer. And in the material world everyone is a enjoyer. He is planning in his own way how to enjoy. That is material world. In the spiritual world the enj…, is Krishna, and all others is helping in His enjoyment. But in material world everyone is thinking, “I am enjoyer,” and he is planning in his own way.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, modern philosophy is teaching that the forces of greed and lust and these things are greater than man, that actually… This concept that we are eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, they cannot accept that or understand that. They’re thinking that the powers of evil are much greater, and we’re just controlled by these things.
Prabhupada: Therefore they are fools. When a man’s lusty desire is very strong, he commits, what is called, rape, and he becomes complicated in criminal activities. Käma esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah. Why one is forced to do that? The cause is lusty desires, anger, greediness. So we are thinking we are master of this material world, but actually you are servant of these desires, käma, krodha, lobha, mohaù. And that is mäyä. He is acting as servant, but he’s thinking, “I am master.” That is mäyä, which is not the fact. Just like yesterday we were discussing that the women, they are acting as instrument of men, and they are thinking, “We have equal rights.” A man is utilizing her for his own purpose, and she is thinking “I am equal.”
Ravindra Svarupa: I think you really surprised them when you told them that this women’s liberation is just a trick by the men just to increase the class of prostitutes, available prostitutes.
Prabhupada: Free prostitutes. You go to a prostitute; you have to pay. Here they have arranged in such a way that free prostitute loitering on the street, and you can enjoy any one. This is their plan. They are rendered into beggar, and they are thinking equal rights.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, what does it mean that the soul is immovable?
Prabhupada: Immovable? Where it is?
Devotee (2): It states this in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: What is this? What is the verse?
Devotee (2): I don’t know exactly. It’s in the Second Chapter. Krishna’s describing the nature of the spirit soul to Arjuna. Does anyone know that verse?
Nitäi : Sthanur acalo ’yam…?
Prabhupada: Immovable in this sense: when he is fixed up in a certain body, then he is immovable from that body. Acalo ’yam sthanuù, sthanuù. Just like we’re speaking of transplanting the heart. That does not mean you move the soul. That is immovable.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the pure devotee’s spirit soul is not trapped by the gross and subtle bodies?
Prabhupada: Yes, when he is liberated by devotional service. Sa guëän samatétyaitän brahma-bhüyäya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].
Devotee (4): Prabhupada, when we try to explain to people that our philosophy of Krishna consciousness is authoritative and is coming from undisturbed men, learned men, that our spiritual master is not an ordinary man, what does it mean that he is not an ordinary man?
Prabhupada: He is not moved by the rascal scientist. (laughter) All rascals are moved by the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada… (laughter)
Prabhupada: (laughing) The scientist is angry.
Svarupa Damodara: The soul is trapped as well as untrapped in the material body…
Prabhupada: Because he wanted to be trapped.
Svarupa Damodara: But sometimes it is also untrapped. But sometimes he is also free.
Prabhupada: No, by nature, he is not mixed up with these material things, but he is entrapped by his free will. Just like we are staying here. We are not bound to stay here, but we have come here. Nobody has forced us to come here.
Svarupa Damodara: So is that philosophy, simultaneously one and different…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: …that acintya-bhedäbheda is also applicable in the case of…
Prabhupada: No, soul never mixes with the matter. Now I have come here, I am not mixed up with this jungle.
Svarupa Damodara: But it looks like it…
Prabhupada: It looks like. That is another thing. Asaìgo ’yaà puruñaù. The Vedic injunction is” “The puruña, the soul, is never complicated or mixed up with this.” Because just like oil and water, it never mixes. The oil keeps its separate identity in water.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. But if you put in a body, though they cannot be mixed, but they can stay together. Like in a chemical laboratory we take a test tube. In the test tube I can mix two solutions like, for example, mercury and water and oil. They will not mix, but they will stay in the same test tube. But a man who knows about the art of separating those three mixtures can do it very nicely.
Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, soul does not mix with the matter and by this art, transcendental knowledge, you can become out of it.
Svarupa Damodara: So that’s why we need a process and someone who knows the process of.
Prabhupada: The process is bhakti-yoga. Sa guëän samatétyaitän: [Bg. 14.26] “Anyone who has taken to this bhakti-yoga,” mäà ca vyabhicariëi bhakti-yogena yaù sevate, “he immediately becomes free from the mixture of these three guëas.” Sa gunän samatétyaitän brahma-bhüyäya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. “He again revives his Brahman nature.” Ahaà brahmäsmi. Brahma-bhütäh prasannätmä: [Bg. 18.54] Then he understands that ‘I have no connection with these all nonsense things. I am brahma-bhütäh.’ ”
Devotee (4): Prabhupada, we’re in this material world, in this human body, we’re having to work with this intelligence, with mind, material things. So there is a group of philosophers that say that actually because we’re a product, our mind, the way we’re thinking now is a product of our upbringing and our past, that actually we have no free will, but we’re forced to think and act in a certain way.
Prabhupada: Why you are forced?
Devotee (4): Because of conditioning.
Prabhupada: Then that you have to admit that you are conditioned by some authority. When you are put into jail, you cannot act independently. You have to act according to the jail superintendent’s order.
Devotee (3): Prabhupada, is our desire to be eternal, blissful and full of knowledge…
Prabhupada: Now let me finish. You will never be able to understand if you jump over like that. Let one thing be understood.
Devotee (4): So he admits he’s conditioned, but still, there’s no free will. He says, “Yeah, so I’m in the prison. I’m imprisoned. I’m conditioned.”
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Free will… Just like a man commits theft by his free will. But when he is put into jail, then no more free will. He has to act according to the jail superintendent. But his beginning of jail life is free will. Nobody asked him that “You go to jail.” But why he has come? He knows also that “When I am put into jail, I will lose all my freedom.” He knows that. Still, he comes. Why does he come? He knows that. That is called ajnäna. Müdha. That is called müdha. He knows; still, he does.
Svarupa Damodara: He is taking a chance.
Prabhupada: Yes, that means he is becoming implicated.
Svarupa Damodara: He thinks that maybe he will be free, that…, if sometimes there’s also a chance that he will be caught.
Prabhupada: That is ajïäna. As soon as he, “may be,” that means ajïäna.
Devotee (4): So that’s why we originally fell down?
Prabhupada: Knowledge must be solid. There is no question “of maybe,” no. Just like if you touch fire, there is no question of “maybe.” It must burn you. You may think, “It may not burn,” but that is your foolishness.
Ravindra Svarupa: So they think that they can enjoy material nature but not be implicated.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not implicated. He is already implicated. There is no question of maybe. Must.
Devotee (5): So when we fell down from the spiritual world…
Prabhupada: Then you must suffer. There is no question, “maybe.”
Devotee (5): When we fell down we were thinking, we could enjoy like that, in the same way?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is foolishness. And we are making our plan how to enjoy. That is our foolishness. And Krishna says “You give up all these nonsense plans. Come to Me.”
Devotee (5): Is this example proper, that a son is being well taken care of by the father, but sometimes he’s thinking, “I can enjoy more some other way?”
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, can I change the topic? Last, day before yesterday, morning, Prabhupada said that plants are more highly developed than the fish or the aquatics. But someone may ask what about the dolphins and the seals. They are regarded as very intelligent and highly developed.
Prabhupada: Every living entity has a particular type of intelligence which is greater than the other.
Svarupa Damodara: No, in the evolutionary cycle. Talking about the…
Prabhupada: No, evolutionary, cycle, the body may change, but every living entity has got a special advantage upon the others.
Ravindra Svarupa: What is the advantage of a tree, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: You see how they are standing there for five thousand years. You cannot do it. You cannot do it even for five minutes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually the trees are absolutely necessary for the survival of animals.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. We say nothing is necessary, simply Krishna is necessary. That is material conception: “This is necessary. This is necessary.” But Krishna says, “Nothing is necessary.” Sarva-dharmän parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You are simply planning and becoming entangled with so-called “necessary.”
Svarupa Damodara: But that is on the spiritual platform.
Prabhupada: You can create spiritual platform immediately. Sa guëän samatétyaitän [Bg. 14.26]. If you fully engage yourself in devotional service, immediately you are above this material conception.
Svarupa Damodara: So the concept that the three modes of material nature, they’re working all species, so it’s not the…
Prabhupada: They are directing. Just like in the jail there are different departmental management, similarly, this management is required because you are in the jail. If you don’t go to jail, the management may be closed. But you are thinking, “If I do not go to jail, how it will exist?” That is your business, say that “If we all become liberated, how this world will go on?” They say like that, as if it is very necessary.
Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, is the subtle bodies in the subtle world, are they made up of subtle atoms?
Prabhupada: Subtle body means subtle atoms. So if we are in subtle body, so whatever there is in the subtle body, everything is there.
Devotee (6): Prabhupada, sometimes on Sankirtana we say that the human form of life is the highest because in this form we can understand God, and they say, “Well, what about the dolphins? You know, they’ve been doing experiments with the dolphins, and they’ve been finding out that the dolphins have their own conversations and things like that.”
Prabhupada: So what they have done with the dolphins? They are talking only. What they have done? Simply theorizing. [break]
Prabhupada: (in car) …improved anything.
Ravindra Svarupa: No.
Prabhupada: They are going on ciraà vicinvan. Forever they are simply thinking, and no improvement has done.
Ravindra Svarupa: Of course, they promise that they will be able to do so many…
Prabhupada: That everyone can, a child can also promise. That is another thing.
Ravindra Svarupa: [break] …the cells because they say that the cells are the fundamental unit of life and if they can understand even a very simple cell, then they think perhaps they can find the principles to understand everything living.
Prabhupada: Well, this “perhaps…”
Ravindra Svarupa: But they can’t understand the cell.
Prabhupada: Yes. So their “perhaps,” “maybe,” is going on. And that will continue.
Ravindra Svarupa: Why does the living entity wish to speculate in this way?
Prabhupada: He has been given a special advantage to think of God, but instead of thinking God, he is thinking all these rubbish things, which he will never be able to fulfill. Misusing. The thinking power he is misusing.
Ravindra Svarupa: So this mental speculation or this “perhaps” and “maybe” is a misuse of his specific power to understand God.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Athäto brahma jijnasa. The life, human life, is meant for enquiring about God, and God is explaining Himself about God. Instead of studying Bhagavad-gita very scrutinizingly, they are wasting time. “The cells, this, that, atom.” That’s all, wasting time Just like we are driving this car. So we can utilize it for going from one place to another. So there is no need of studying how the car is moving, how many parts are there.
Ravindra Svarupa: But still, people seem to have always a curiosity about these things.
Prabhupada: Yes. That curiosity is explained in the Bhagavad-gita that it is a machine and there are many subtle parts of the machine. So you have been given this machine. You utilize it properly. Why you are busy in studying the different parts? The different parts are there undoubtedly. But you cannot actually understand.
Ravindra Svarupa: We’re going to take a picture, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: All right. (end)

(ACBSP. Morning Walk, July 14, 1975, Philadelphia.)

So in conclusion what we are engineering through the cloning process is a living being who would ordinarily by generative natural selection of proproirtership be of an inferior nature in the “pecking order” of domination over the person who pervades the body when cloning takes place. Under normal insemination that is attracted by the conglomerate consciousness of the mother and father of the issue, and the subsequent nurturing and growth, and bonding that takes place to enable the “human psyche” to delevop properly, enabling security, love, appreciation, gratitude etc to develop, some of the finer sentiments of human culture. Without which insensitive, impersonal, artificially conceived, laboritory harvested and grown, and then trained……. certainly leaves something of a vacuum, a vast lacking in what it takes to be a REAL and cultured member of the human race.

See my link here to reveal the technicalities of the nature of the Jivatma (soul). This page looks at the soul who inhabits a body, any body, every body, and reveals simply the cheating nature of the material scientists. You may remember in the days when they said they would create life in the test tube….. but then actually what they did was to replicate the conditions of the womb in a test tube and then follow the same process of insemination but in a lab’ in a test tube – simply trying to re-invent the wheel, and got paid millions of tax payer dollars for doing it.

BHAGAVAD-GITA 14:4

BHAGAVAD-GITA 16:9

BHAGAVAD-GITA 16:10

Source:

http://www.hknet.org.nz/cloning.htm

Popularity: 30% [?]

19 Sep 1972, Los Angeles

SP: Therefore they are suffering only for the matter of knowing something, kevala krishanti.kevala [indistinct word]. Krishanti means taking trouble unnecessarily.  What do you gain by this knowledge? You cannot solve your problems.

BSDS: That is why the brains of the scientists are very busy in thinking all these things, how to try to understand this natural phenomena, all the time busy.

SP: Therefore Bhagavat says, idaḿ hi puḿsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā[i] . Your education, brain should be uitlised how to know God. Not that how the chemical is deposited, you see.  avicyuto ‘rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito, yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam. Rather try to describe how Krsna, God, has made this arrangement. Then it will be kirtana. Simply add this verse that God has deposited this way, this way. That will be described in the Bhagavatam, one after another how creation is being made. But the original point is creator is God. How God is creating, if we describe scientifically, that means it is  kirtana, chanting the glories of the Lord. That they will not do…they’ll end.. “perhaps, maybe” that’s all. “Perhaps, maybe” that’s all. At least Einstein at last he admitted “maybe there is God” like that?

BSDS: Yes. He believes that the natural laws are governed by controllers, different controllers

SP: Oh he believes?

BSDS: Einstein believes. Like  Einstein’s- one of his -  like Fermi or Dirac-  there exists a very famous scientist, almost contemporary and he did not believe in the existence of God. When Einstein developed his theory of relativity, Heisenberg and  Fermi, and Max Planck in Germany. So they invited Einstein and so  Einstein was thinking that these laws are controlled by some unknown controller. He did not know but so Fermi and this Heisenberg -..

SP: Bhagavat avigyatha Everything is there ….‘avigyatha friend.’ I’ve got a friend but I do not know he’s helping behind. Avigyatha.

BSDS: Actually, we encounter everyday the existence of the supreme brain. Just for example, in the chemical laboratory, we make different crystals like different salts and they have very definite and complete organized crystalline structures, different from each type of crystal and these are made just automatically. No one – just mix some things, and then the crystal grows with a definite geometrical shape, beautiful arrangements all the crystals.

SP: What is that crystals?

BSDS: So for example, salts of chromium, magnesium and nickel, these they combine with different anionic radicals, and then, just keep together for a few days.

SP: Crystals…

BSDS: Yes, these are called crystals. Like quartz – quartz is a crystal. In a diamond for example. These are called crystals in chemical terms.

Devotee: Also snowflakes…

BSDS: Yes, snow also…

Devotee: Snowflakes, water…

BSDS: Yes, the water is a definite shaped crystal, it cannot be changed. It always remains the definite crystal structure.

SP: They are called molecules?

BSDS: Yes, these are  called molecules. They call the molecular framework. These are arranged by – it’s a beautiful, beautiful arrangement. Like for example, sodium chloride has hexagonal shape, and geometrical, and beautiful arrangement in the crystal structure. They’re studying by a technique called x-ray crystallography.   So they make a small crystal and put under the x-ray beam and then X-ray beam is photographed, and from the photograph, we can see where the

sodium atom is staying in the space and chlorine is staying in the space and they have a beautiful picture in the film.  From there, you can understand the arrangement of the atoms.

SP: And we understand within the atom there is God.  aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham[ii]

Devotee: The snow…

BSDS: Yes.

Devotee: When the snow falls each flake of snow is perfectly symmetrical. Different patterns and each pattern is different from every other pattern.

BSDS: Yes, for example, this coal tar, these are different arrangements of  so called molecules of benzene. These molecules are hexagonal, the six sides are completely all the same, symmetrical. What happens is, one after another, there are different layers of this six faced hexagonal molecules and so they combine together and form this coal tar. The same thing with diamond also.  The structure is very similar with coal tar.  But only the – layers are different…

SP:  [indistinct verse]

BSDS: These are all arranged by most powerful brain.

SP: As soon as you accept brain, He must be a person.

BSDS: Yes.

SP: So God is a person. (pause) God cannot be impersonal (pause). By this scientific explanation, come to the conclusion, “God is a person”.  And we accept Him as supreme, paramah…Ishvarah paramah krsna, supreme brain. Acintya medha, inconceivable brain. These are.descriptions. Jiva Goswami has said that unless you accept God having inconceivable brain, He cannot be God. (pause) Small teeny seed, there is a big banyan tree, whole potency is there [indistinct words]. Similarly the whole universe is also put in a small atomic grain, that is coming out from Vishnu’s body and they are developing this.

Devotee: Sometimes in the ancient Egyptian graves, they find grains. When they plant those grains, they again grow even after they’ve been in the graves 2000 years, dormant.

SP: seed is [indistinct]  Bijam mam sarva-bhutanam. What is the time?

Devotee: Seven o’clock.

SP: If we present scientifically about the existence of God, that will be a great service. Think over discuss, here’s a scientist and try to write articles. (pause) He’s not protesting, he’s supporting us, so this is a great chance.

Devotee: Last night I was listening to that tape made with that Indian scientist in your room. Such a rascal. His argument was so easily defeated. It all came down to he doesn’t believe and we believe. He doesn’t believe in Krishna and we believe in Krishna. That’s the ultimate conclusion.

BSDS:  His arguments were self defeating.

SP: eh?

BSDS: Self defeating. He says something and say again opposes .

SP: Self-contradictory.

Devotee: He had to admit that that there was some kind of intelligence behind [indistinct word]’

SP: (laughs) Then why not God?

Devotee: He makes a contradiction.

SP: Intelligence means person. Brain means person.

Devotee: He has to admit God. We asked him If  he thought everything just happened by chance, or random, he said  ‘ no, there’s some kind of plan, some kind of intelligence,  order.’ Then later on we asked him if the universe was perfect- if the complete the universe was perfect., He said ‘no’ –  contradiction.

SP: He said universe is not perfect?

Devotee: Yeah. That’s what we scientists work for – to make it perfect.

SP:  Yes.

(sound of car starting)

SP: Our knowledge is perfect because it is coming from Krishna.  The Supreme perfect. (pause)

What is this boat, shipping?

Devotee: Fishing.

(SP chanting Hare Krishna)

SP: [indistinct sloka] The greatest scientist is the Krsna conscious person.

BSDS: In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says to Arjuna ,17^th Chapter, up to 17^th chapter,  surrender unto Krishna and then in the end, in the 18^th Chapter, Krsna says, I’ve given you the full knowledge, now it is up to you to whether to accept or not to accept, so that all shows how merciful is Krishna..

SP: He has  given us full freedom.  Full freedom we cannot enjoy, that is not possible , but as far as the question of our constitution is concerned, there is  freedom. Just like the parents give the child freedom, that is not full freedom  but he does not feel.

Devotee: (while driving) Ooh, man almost got hit. Not very attentive (laughter).

SP: (chants for a while) The devotee of the Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu , what to speak of the scientists, even great demigods like Brahma, Indra ,they are also considered [indistinct words].

(chants)

SP: I think there’s a little garden in front of our house?

Devotee: small but..

SP: They are taking care?

Devotee: They started but its being neglected for now.

SP: They should take care.

(End)

---

[i] idaḿ hi puḿsas tapasaḥ śrutasya vā

sviṣṭasya sūktasya ca buddhi-dattayoḥ

avicyuto ‘rthaḥ kavibhir nirūpito

yad-uttamaśloka-guṇānuvarṇanam.

Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry (SB 1.5.22)

[ii] eko ‘py asau racayituḿ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiḿ

yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayā yad-antaḥ

aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham-

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore (Brahma Samhita 5.35)

Transcriber: Bhaktin Preetha

Editor: Rupachandra Das

Date: 16^th August 2007

Popularity: 20% [?]

(Here is a Conversations of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sripada Maharaj (DR. TD Singh, Ph.D and others devotees which take place in Los Angeles. transcribe by Singapore Devotees)

Devotee: Like night is only night in relationship to day , big is only big in relationship to small.

SP: So they accept there is small and there is big?

Devotee: Relativity.

SP: Yes. Everything is relative.

BSDS:  Yes. It’s related by time and space. To call five seconds or ten seconds, it’s related, because nothing is absolute.

SP: Why they do not understand relativity of brain?

BSDS: Yes, they are also to understand that, but they haven’t proposed yet.

SP: Eh?

BSDS: They haven’t proposed, so far.

Devotee: The formula is, what is it? “Energy equals…”

BSDS:  e= mc squared?

Devotee: Time times?

BSDS: Mass times the square of velocity of light.

Devotee: the what?

BSDS: Of the velocity of light.

SP: In psychology, there is study –  brain substance. Brain substance of all men are not equal. Is it known to the scientist? Brain substance.

BSDS:  Yeah. I think it’s known because when Einstein died, they tried to preserve the brain of Einstein, thinking that his brain was different from others.

SP: If it was not different, then how you can distinguish.

BSDS: The brain substance is different, that’s you have the-  intelligence different.

SP:  According to brain substance, there is difference of  intelligence.

Devotee:  They attribute to a lot more factors too like environment, development -

SP: Anyway. So, relative brain, This is like night (inaudible) duration of life of Brahma is different from the duration of life of the ant So, relatively there are so many different species of life. Relatively. Do the scientists agree or not?

Devotee: Yes.

SP: Eh? Then why there shouldn’t be a perfect brain, which is God.

Devotee: The atheists they say that…

SP: It is not a question of atheist, it is question of science.

Devotee: They say the scientific conclusion is that relativity extends for infinity.

SP: Yes, that infinity, the infinite brain is God.

Devotee:  They say there is no need for a one infinite.

SP: No, there is need because you are operator in the laboratory. Hydrogen, oxygen, you can make one glass of water. So why not the biggest brain make the pacific ocean.  How can we deny it? If we accept the law of relativity, then just like a ant. It can bore holes , small in the drain. You can make a tunnel. Similarly one can make biggest tunnel.

Devotee: They say that you are just material energy and water is material energy.-

SP: Everyone is material energy.  It is working relatively  in accordance to relative brain and body. So ultimately, infinite brain is (inaudible).

BSDS: That infinite brain is absolute.

SP: Yes. He is not dependent on anyone.

Devotee: They say, they say that, small relativity, it’s like, we’re relative to our capacity, so everything is relative.

SP: Yes.

Devotee: God also has to be relative.

SP: Yes. God is relative, you are small, He is big. That’s all

BSDS: Yes.

SP: We are teeny and He’s infinite.

Devotee: So on that basis also we can say that you are God over the ant.

SP: Yes. That we have explained every time that we are not supreme but in comparison to the ant I am God. Similarly the ant is also God in comparison to the microbe.

Devotee: They say that relativity extends there is no supreme supreme.

SP: eh?

Devotee:  Just relative supreme.

SP: Relative supreme indeed. Just like you are God to the ant, similarly He is supreme God to everyone.

Devotee: That they won’t agree.

SP: Why they shall not agree? Eh, why they shall not agree.

BSDS: Because they do not have complete information.

SP:  There is no question of information, it is a question of knowledge and philosophy. As I see it, relative, this is small, this is big, this is bigger than this, this is bigger than this, bigger than this, bigger than this. Then, you find that no more bigger. Then that is God.

Devotee: They say that relative scale, that small and bigger that goes on forever. It never stops.

SP: Yes, that’s alright, that’s alright. But you have to accept somebody bigger that you.

BSDS: So, in the –in the material time scale, there is no absolute.

SP: That is explained in the Vedas, nitya nityanam. God means that means that He is also eternal, we are also eternal, everything is eternal. As they say, everything is existing, but the operation is different. Operation is relative. God means His operational activity is much more higher, important than yours. [Pause] You have a small body like this. If you are asked to pick up something from the midst of the ocean, you cannot do that. But if one can assume a very big body, in the midst of the ocean, the water is like this, up to this. How can you deny it?

Devotee: Well they don’t deny that. They simply deny the existence of an absolute supreme.

SP: There is no question of absolute. You have to accept bigger than you. [Pause] Just like this small bird, it is walking in the water with beach. The water may be up to this. Somebody may come (inaudile).

BSDS: Making a lot of noise.

Devotee: Well they wouldn’t deny that.

SP:  If you accept that, then it is alright, that is God.  He is greater than you, that’s all. Same example.  Hydrogen, oxygen. Hydrogen, oxygen is there. You make. You can make a glass of water in the laboratory. The hydrogen, oxygen is there, but you cannot mix, big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen and make a sea. But one who can do that is bigger than us.

Devotee: Because as relativity extends on, that discounts the importance of any one person.

SP: Yes, that’s important. You cannot make the sea. You can make a glass of water. Therefore one who has made the sea is much more important than yourself.  How can you deny it.

Devotee: They say that one’s made water is more important than one who has made the sea.

SP: Eh? That’s alright. As long as you accept that there is somebody bigger than you who can make the sea. That means somebody bigger than you, that’s alright. But you accept that you are small, he is big. [Pause] That we have explained in the Brahma Samhita, that the Maha Vishnu, from his breathing, millions of universes are coming. And again  - yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso. This Mahavishnu is only a portion –  plenary expansion of Krishna. Maha Vishnu is also nothing. That we accept, relatively, more, more, more, more.

Devotee: Their point of argument is that they don’t accept that there is a transcendental energy that exists.

SP: Never mind that. But you have to accept that you are not even an insignificant ant before Him. That you accept. Then our proposition is finished.

Devotee: But they…

SP: You are nothing but an insignificant ant in comparison to His power.

Devotee: But they think, it’s like, the ant may have insignificant power, but the ant is not increasing its power, but human beings are increasing their power.

SP: Could be, but for the time being, you  are nothing but an insignificant creature.Just like anyone is trying to become a very big businessman. Not that before becoming a Rockefeller, he can claim that I am Rockefeller. That is nonsense. You become Rockefeller, then you say.

Devotee: Just the possibility of becoming one intoxicates them.

SP: The possibility is not fact. Everyone has got the possibility of becoming a Rockefeller. But that does not mean everyone is Rockefeller. That is another (?foolishness).

Devotee: But the possibility props them up, intoxicates them.

SP: Eh?

Devotee: The possibility intoxicates them.

SP: Then you can think that all the banks belong to me. That is another intoxication. If you want to be happy, then all the banks of Los Angeles, they belong to me.  I am the proprietor. The intoxication gives you some relief, then enjoy that, but actually you’re a madman, if you think like that.

Devotee: Some human beings have done that.

SP: Uh?

Devotee: Some human beings have done that.

SP: But you are not, first of all you accept. Some may have done, some may be done but you are not. First of all you accept that. (Inaudible).

BSDS: The-the problem of relativity is alright. So for example, I can make five bowls and one bowl would be smaller than others. So like that, I can make five different kinds of bowls, but these are related to the others but I am making these bowls you know. So there has to be a person who can make these related things.

SP: Yes.

BSDS: Otherwise there is no question of relativity, if there’s someone who is operating these relative things.

Devotee: They say that relative energy creates relative manifestations. The energy which is making the bowls is still relative.

BSDS: Yes, but there has to be a person who is engaged in making these related things, otherwise, there will be no relativity.

Devotee: That’s still relative energy.

SP: Whatever it may be. Somebody is operating this relative law. [Pause] We explain many times that everyone has got  [inaudible] relative.

BSDS: Yes.

Devotee: In modern-modern physics, [inaudible] personality, intelligence, everything is simply different combinations of material energy.

SP: That’s alright. That is relative.

Devotee: There is no necessary of question of a person being [inaudible] everything is simply atoms.

SP: Because you are person, therefore everything must be person. You are studying as a person. You are not a dead body.

Devotee: That person , that personality is also just atoms in different orbits.

SP:  That’s alright, we agree-we agree. Therefore we say see God, karuna.

BSDS: We are like atomic particles.

SP: We accept that. Everything person.

Devotee: Everything is atom and atoms are not persons.

SP: Why not? We say that within the atom, there is God.

Devotee: That they can’t see.

SP: Eh?

Devotee: That they can’t see.

SP: They cannot see so many things, rascals. What to speak of God (laughter). We cannot see what is there within the ocean. That does not mean, there is no living entity.   Your seeing power is defective. [Pause]  A small microbes [inaudible]  Within that micro-body, it is all physiological machine, but we cannot see.

Devotee: [inaudible]

SP: eh?

Devotee:  If a crazy man comes up and says…

SP: Practical means you have to accept, that you are a small insignificant and that is very very big. That is practical. How can you deny it? As you can create a glass of water by mixing hydrogen and oxygen, so another person who can create the sea by mixing hydrogen, oxygen, he must be greater than you, you have to accept.

Devotee:  [inaudible] its all the same energy anyway.

SP: That’s alright but you cannot operate it. Energy is there, material is there. [Pause] If you accept the law of relativity you have to accept God. What you think?

BSDS: There’s no question about it. [Pause] In other words, God is infinite and we are finite particles of small living ….

SP: Yes.

BSDS: ..fragments.

SP: Anor aniyan mahato mahiyan. Smaller than the smallest, bigger than the biggest.  [Pause] (inaudible verse). You are creating one glass of water by mixing hydrogen, oxygen. God is creating millions of billions of pacific ocean simultaneously. Just like seasonal changes, as soon as  the season changes, millions of trees immediately grows leaves. Immediately. When there is a change of season immediately millions of leaves (inaudible). This is God’s energy. The energy is working in the same way. You can also create one leaf. If you take the procedure, you can make artificially one leaf but that is also not perfect. But God has created millions of trees, and millions and trillions of leaves within a second. That you can see.

Devotee: They won’t credit that to a person.

SP: eh?

Devotee:  They won’t give any credit.

SP: But that is their foolishness. (laughter)  Therefore they are rascal. You kick him with shoe. (Inaudible) No, I’m alright. (laughter)

Devotee: They say, just like you build a big fire may, that produces 100 degrees, a small fire produces five degrees, its still fire.

SP: That’s alright. You are also living entity, he is also living entity, there is no change.  You also fire, he is also fire. But you are spark, he is big fire. That is difference.  A spark is also fire. Who denies it?

Devotee: They say it is all one.

SP: All one in quality, not in quantity. That is our philosophy.

Devotee: They say the whole material energy as being….

SP: That’s alright. Difference of quantity is there, that is relativity..And I’m trying to – You can make a glass of water. That quantity and if I can make a pacific ocean,  that quantity is not one, but the water is one, that’s all. And the process of manufacturing is also one. But the quantity is different.

Devotee: Because if the material energy is the same, then there is no need for a God.

SP:  No, there is need of God. You cannot make the Pacific Ocean. That God is needed.

BSDS: We simply say that God’s power is inconceivable.

SP: Yes. Inconceivable to you, but not inconceivable to Him

BSDS: Yes

SP: He knows His business.

BSDS: Because our brain is so teeny, compared with His, so we cannot conceive his power.

SP: Yes, Inconceivable.

[Pause]

SP:  Just like the contents of the sun, there is no [inaudible], so that at night, there is no need of .

BSDS: Electricity?

SP: Electricity light.

Devotee:  Assuming who has created the sun has created us

SP: That is one after another. If by creation of something, by that energy, another thing is created, another thing is created. That is the law of creation.

Devotee: They won’t see anyone behind that.

SP: What power of seeing. That is their foolishness. What they can see. How far they can see?  So called seeing disease is childish. What you can see?

Devotee: Dr. Frog’s philosophy.

SP: Yes, Dr. Frog’s .

BSDS: They say that, so called, discoveries by scientists are nothing but imitation just as

(New tape)

BSDS: Yes at the same time, for example discoveries like aeroplane. They discovered because they imitated the flying of birds. They saw how the birds are flying so they imitated two wings, like shape of a bird. This is not their creation. This is just imitation from nature. Similarly, all discoveries are just imitations.

SP: Still they cannot imitate. Just like a small bird  also flying. So what machinery is there? If they can invent that machinery, (inaudible) question is over. But he cannot see that. The bird is also flying, the aeroplane is also flying but you are flying the aeroplane on the strength of petroleum but in the bird there is no petroleum. The bird is creating its own energy from within. Machine is so made that it is flying without petroleum. Why don’t you do that?

BSDS: Because the living force. In a bird there is living force.

Devotee: They think they can.

SP: They have not done it. Again that same thing..

Devotee: In the future.

SP: In future. That is nonsense. (Laughter). When you do it, then you say.

BSDS: Say for example, computer. Computer is just like human brain. I mean its different to a degree but it works like a human brain. But of course there is a operator in the –

SP: The human brain is there. It is pushing the body. Without human brain you cannot work. The human brain is there. It is not human brain. The machine itself is not human brain. The human brain outside the machine works.

Devotee:  They are saying they will make a human brain.

SP: That’s alright, see again the future (laughter). This foolishness is there. But we don’t accept such foolishness – the future. Everyone can say in future I shall become like this.

BSDS: That is why in one branch of science, so called trying to solve in future, say for example, they already trying to tell what is going to happen in two thousand years. So they say in two thousand years for example what type of dinner is going to have today so –

SP: But he cannot say what is going to happen to him in two thousand years.

BSDS: He cannot say even I mean, tomorrow what is going to happen

Devotee: He will be existing as much as he is existing now because the energy will all be conserved.

SP: The energy is always existing. You don’t require to think of what will happen. The energy is existing. Why you bother yourself? Let the energy do its own (inaudible). Actually it is being done. Just like Mr. Johnson, he was president and he was always busy, what will happen, what will happen. Now the election is over and still the government is going on without him. The government is going on without him. But when he was in the government he was thinking, oh what will happen.

Devotee: I’d say the government is going on because he was conscientious like that when he was the president.

SP: Yes but without him, the government can go on. Why does he not think like that?

Devotee: (inaudible) we have to think like that. Just like if I thought I don’t have to do anything because it will go on anyway

SP:  No, if you accept that energies are already there then why should you bother. The energy is (inaudible).

Devotee: But I am also that energy. If I am acting –

SP: But when you are not acting the energy is going on. So your action or no action, it doesn’t matter.

Devotee: (Inaudible) we should say it doesn’t matter whether I chant Hare Krishna or not because the energy is the same.

SP: Yes, that right. But you do not belong to that. We belong to what you call discriminating human being. You want to create something for advancement, we are living entity, we want advancement. And advancement means I have to do that. If I want to go, advance, then I have to walk. Your walking will not do, my walking is required if I want to advance.

BSDS: So planning for something is necessary. Without planning thinking that the energy is everywhere we cannot just -

SP: Planning is necessary. That planning should be within the big planning. You cannot plan anything whimsically.

BSDS: Mmhmm.

(Pause).

SP: So prove existence of God by this law of relativity.

(Pause).

BSDS: Actually everything is working under the laws of nature. Nothing remains stopped. Everything works.

SP: (inaudible verse). That is the instruction in the Bhagavad Gita. When Arjuna was declining to fight , Krishna ultimately says don’t think that all these men who are gathered here will go on. It is already planned they should die. You fight or not fight, they will die. That plan is already there. (inaudible verse) We have to endeavour for Krishna consciousness and nothing else. Everything is there. That is the point. Because you are living entity, you’ve got little independence. By misuse of independence you become out of Krishna’s association. So we have to try for that to again go back to the association. Nothing else. Other things will go on. You don’t require to become a scientist or physicist or this or that. You don’t require. Simply required to chant Hare Krishna, that’s all. That is your only requirement. (inaudible) scientist . We are trying to please Krishna that’s all. But things are going on. (pause) Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja , you simply surrender , that is your duty. No other duty. (verse).

(End)

Transcriber: Bhaktin Preetha

Editor: Rupachandra Das

Date: 10/05/2008

Popularity: 12% [?]